The College Scam

Whenever "tomorrow" comes, could you elaborate ... assuming you're no longer so tired as you were at the time of your earlier post? Mind you, I know nothing of the German educational system ... so I'm not saying you're wrong ... I'd just like to become (somewhat) knowledgeable.

 

I'm not Go_Fishy but I am German, so I'm also able to answer your questions.
Maybe this video is intersting for you: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=oVNmnW-jVpU (one of the better videos at youtube)

It lacks, of course, some informations about German vocational education and about the problems of the German education system, but it's a good start.

mintaru

 

I'm not going to lie I wish I skipped out on getting my 4yr degree and went to a tech school instead. I'd easily be making double what I make now. There is always a market for plumbers, hvacs and techs. Writers are a dime a dozen.

 

Fascinating video. Thanks for sharing.

It sounds like children are directed from an early age where they should go, based on their academic capabilities and personal interests. As a result, only about 40% go to university -- and it's free.

Yes, please do!

 

Tomorrow's now. Here we go.

The video clip provides a nice overview. As was mentioned, Germany's secondary education system has three tiers:

Hauptschule (historically, the school for the masses; graduation after 9th grade. After graduation, students go into an apprenticeship and join the workforce in low income/low qualification sectors such as construction, manufacturing, food industry, etc.)

Realschule (from Latin 'res,' thing/subject; historically a school combining practical and applied academic skills, especially for middle-class business people, bankers, sales people etc.; graduation after 10th grade. After graduation, students enroll in apprenticeships and vocational schools to join the workforce in the service industry, sales, childcare, etc.)

Gymnasium (preparation for the university, but in the past, a Gymnasium diploma alone was an academic qualification; even today the last Gymnasium class covers subjects that Americans do in their freshman and sophomore years in college. Graduation is after 12th - used to be 13th - grade)

After Gymnasium, Germans go to college. German universities are almost free, and students get financial support from their parents and/or the state.

If you don't happen to go to school in a notoriously underfunded part of the country (often Eastern Germany with the exception of states like Saxony, which have great education systems), German universities have excellent academic standards and take their responsibility to form young intellectuals very seriously.
The first year(s) of college are generally considered a time to explore and live life, so society does not expect college students to get up before 11, be sober, work a lot, or pay taxes...

Sounds awesome? Well, it is...if you get there.

The big problem is that only a Gymnasium diploma grants you access to all academic fields and universities. There are colleges of applied sciences, technology etc. (Fachhochschulen) that admit Realschule graduates with additional qualifications, but for comprehensive universities this is generally not the case.

The decision whether or not a child will go to Gymnasium is made by the elementary school, when the kid is 9 or 10 years old. This selection process essentially determines a German's academic and professional future.

The screaming injustice of the system is that there is little mobility between the tiers, which become de facto social classes. Parents can override the elementary school's recommendation and often send their kids to a lower-tier school because this is where they went to and thus what feels normal to them. In these cases, the kids get stuck in Hauptschule and has precious few chances to ever get access to higher education. The same, of course, happens to kids who develop slower than their peers or who are immigrants and non-native speakers.

Now, of course not everyone needs or wants to go to college, and in fact the German 3-year apprenticeship system for almost any profession grants a solid practical education. A German construction worker is well-qualified, certified, and can find a job anywhere between Toronto and Dubai. But jobs are getting increasingly complex, and many Hauptschule graduates have a hard time finding a decent apprenticeship and have to take what they can get. As a consequence, Hauptschule graduates today are often in fields that they never wanted, and have horrible chances on the job market and few opportunities for advancement and growth.

Everything I say here is a gross oversimplification. Every state in Germany can modify its educational system, so there are many more school forms. Some states are thinking of getting rid of Hauptschulen in general (a great idea, in my opinion), others introduced integrated schools decades ago.

But as long as we have this 3-tier system, there will be no true mobility between social classes. There is no other country that I am aware of where a child's educational future is as determined by their family's social class as in Germany. And sadly, this is something that lasts a lifetime. Take me for example: I am from a family of academics and of course went to Gymnasium and university.
Number of people in my circle of friends without a college degree: 2
Number of people in my circle of friends without a Gymnasium diploma: 0

Done.

 

I saw a program on education awhile ago that included Germany and a student in the Middle Tier level noted working as a loan office in a bank, hardly a bad or unreasonable profession. That is what I want to see education accepted that is suited to ones career goals maybe more flexible in the United States but with an understanding most careers do not demand a four year degree.

Take anything such as farming one can learn the state of the art in that field, what I call an important profession growing food and raising animals, in a good two year degree program. But the profession is learned by experience isn't it actually working in farming. That is true for most I would argue people would go into. In school I learned what I need to be useful in accounting but experience added most of my actually useful applied applications of that knowledge.

I think highly of earning a bachelors but frankly from what I heard most degrees are watered down from what one was expected to learn in say in 1940 at a top college. Not that I'm an expert but a relative in college is taking a course Science Fiction Films of the 50's. Now I was wondering would in 1940 when earning a bachelors degree would that be a legitimate option for a humanities course?

Seems to me an odd 3 credit course but I'm not a scholar.

 

Ouch. That stings just a bit.

 

On the one hand, it sounds like the German system perpetuates a class system. On the other hand, it sounds like it identifies the capabilities of children from an early age and then tries to direct them down the appropriate career path. Not everyone can be a scientist; identifying the best at a young age sounds like a good thing. Conversely, identifying tradesmen at a young age for the purpose of employing them gainfully throughout their lifetime also sounds like a good thing for the community.

 

>>

Think back when you were a child, were you the same person you are today? To make life long decisions based on your 5th grade math tests is crazy. How many great "would be" doctors, scientists, researches, or architects are instead plumbers?
Like the tracking thread, that I stepped out of last week, to use a tracking system implies that we have some ability to predict future ability, success, and outcome in children. Furthermore, from a strictly political standpoint, I like the American Dream. In our country, individualism allows one to have some control over their future through hard work and determination.
The difference in where this thread started and where it ended up, is that the decision to earn a bachelor's degree (right or wrong, good or bad) is made by the individual- in this case, one's life is decided by a parent and school system. Those are hardly the only two roads to adulthood.

 

Why its true? Look at the Amish they are some of the finest farmers and crafts people and they stop going to school in eighth grade. And frankly the only people that need a bachelors or higher would be int wo groups people overseeing corporate farms or agricultural experts doing research for example. In Wisconsin the farmers I know either learned it as a trade from their families with a two year degree in a related area, and that would generally be as much business as agricultural sciences.

I would argue most professions even the Law and Medicine would not demand a four year degree, for pre-med why not just a two year accelerated program in the basic sciences and the few other areas. Then three years of medical training you could have doctors out and going into specialties in just five years. Law I never understood why for basic practice one needed a professional post-graduate degree couldn't the law be taught in five years as well. The people in these professions and everyone else needs to think outside the box on this and decide what one must know for a profession and what is just fluff.

I just tend to think the system as it is takes trades and professions that are skilled base and demands too much fluff education to be proficient in them. Not that I'm an expert but as I see it in my profession only a fraction of people need a bachelors or graduate degree in accounting that are getting them. Its for me pure degree inflation. It can't be different in all the other professions.

 

The German system also sounds like the antithesis of a free society. The thought of the government deciding for you your place in society from a young age is abhorrent to me.

Go_Fishy, are there any opportunities for a young person schooled in the Hauptschule or Realschule system to attend a University if they choose to do so later in life? Would it be expensive for them? Is there any chance of upward mobility for those with lower education levels? I'm just curious. Thanks for posting.

 

No one is making you pursue any additional education. I find it interesting you want to argue against achieving additional education, including the "fluff" education, on a board sustained by those wanting to advance their education.

Thinking outside the box for me means finding ways of applying education, even fluff education, to be a better parent, a better provider, a better employee, and even just to be able to converse with a diverse group of individuals on multiple topics.

I would like to think we have, as a society, progressed past the point of survival, and can engage in education for purposes other than making a living. From your viewpoint it would seem my thoughts and actions might be altruistic.

 

I think that there is some inherent value in education in general whether it is self-directed or organized by another. I have been in the habit of "giving myself courses" in literature each summer. Typically I pick an author and read a bunch of his works (mostly novels) and I ask myself a set of standard questions about the authors world view, themes that run through the authors writings, how does the author fit into his own time period, etc. Last summer I chose Dickens. I am toying with the idea of earning a Math degree. I'm just interested in knowing more about and a bit curious about whether I can do it. I think I'd need to do it as an organized degree program as opposed to something self-directed. I'm not sure it would translate into a job unless I decided to be a Math teacher (those summer vacations sound good). Anyway, it can simply be fun and interesting. The goal doesn't need to be bigger, better employment.

 

Considering the US Government pretty much requires all children to go to school, that's basically the government telling us what our place should be. While I believe everyone should be given the opportunity to learn, I don't think anyone should be forced to learn. Just as we can choose to be intelligent, we should be able to choose to be ignorant.

-Matt

 

From the government's perspective, I think they believe that if they force education it will pay off in the long run. They assume that educated people won't need welfare or money from social programs as they will be able to support themselves.

However, it doesn't work. We now have a situation where even educated people are losing their jobs. Here in Vegas, there are actually homeless people with college degrees living in tents, and hundred of applicants for minimum wage jobs. I've never seen anything like it before.

 

Remember everyone, you heard it here first. Higher education is a government conspiracy.

 

You can not choose to be intelligent. Your IQ score is what it is. There are many, many people who are intelligent yet ignorant.

Intelligence is about ability. Ignorance is about lack of knowledge.

I may be ignorant of many things. Particle Physics. Sewing. This does not mean that I lack intelligence.

 

I'm not opposed to education for its own sake. I for one read two non-fiction books a week when I can and a few fiction works a month. But I also try to be practical is a degree of four years necessary or four years and professional schooling for three more years for some professions? I just think a doctor could be trained in five years as could lawyers in perhaps the same time, if the programs started at the Freshman year and led to a applied degree in five years.

Add to that realistically if one followed classical liberal education and the apparent demands of that level of education would be limited to maybe 15% of the population. Sizable but leaving a wide swath for either applied schools in business for example offering a degree in say three years. Or community two-year colleges and other options.

As for the German System we don't have to be as they are but I feel strongly one must have a far stronger practical focus on practical vocational education, backed by strong across the board testing. Not just in academic areas that are already covered but other areas important to employment such as social aptitudes and manual dexterity skills. And we must assume whatever the average is which no one has studied it seems, some students will not able to make it if its fairly consistant and in the middle of the population groups of students. What about them?

Most of you are very highly educated in schools but I worked in the trenches and have a child who could try and try but will never be average in say mathematics, if that is anyting over basic mathematical computation and simple problem solving. I tend to support a whole knowledge approach figure out what a student should know grades K-8 making sure at that level thay gain the basic knowledge all citizens should have and are exposed to many areas. Some they may be poor in. Then in high school build on this only towards the goal of getting them ready for employment and/or higher education. At that point it could be redundant to offer American History again when they should know that from elementary school and middle school. But a course in technical mathematics, computer applications, accounting or other area would be more practical for some. And for some a blended program with some pre-college prep for those going to say a two-year college or applied degree bachelors program. For the top 10% of students the ones that perform at the top they should perhaps get the hard pre-college path they need to prepare for that option.

What is wrong with having choice something NCLB is taking away.

 

Multiple Intelligence Theory

I tend to agree in principle with this and the critics are correct not all of these are in fact created equal in schools which is my point on broadening and then focusing education more towards a students strengths. After elementary and middle schools which should be a general exposure to everything sort of experience for all children. I never could perform musically or could do art well but I'm glad I had the exposure. And mathematics over common use was always something I never did get. But I channeled my strenths into a career I did very well in thanks to excellent advising and assessments over my educational years before my college experience.

As I see it we should push students in all areas early and later as they must start focusing on preparing to go out into the world, in secondary school, focus not on materials covered in K-12. But rather on vocational training or mixed vocational & pre-college prep or a pre-college program that matter in each area.

With a serious look on how the education is handled so more students who do go on the earn a bachelors do it in a meaningful way. I took the liberty of talking to my grandfather who was educated at the University of Wisconsin- Madison in the early half of the twentieth century. And compared it to a typical bachelors degree course in one area History. A common subject I should think. The content and materials are far more rich and advanced in the earlier coursework even to a layperson like myself. Lets say a higher than standard complexity of language skills are demanded and a broad knowledge base of common knowledge to say the least. So I think the larger number of bachelors for everyone is hurting liberal education. Even in my case my bachelors he considers one for applied knowledge not a liberal knowledge. There seems to be a difference and dumbing down of the coursework from then to now.

So is it reasonable to call a rather dumbed down and consumer driven education a legitimate one compared to a broad based and intensive liberal arts education, to the highest standards that meant years ago. I think its not serving students who will pay off this large debt for perhaps a useless education when something shorter and more applied would have been better.