The College Scam

Well, it's not really the government. The way I described the system maybe sounded a little too much like Brave New World. Think of it as a SAT for little kids. The elementary school teachers recommend a secondary school type based on the kids' grades and some other factors; of course, the parents have a say, too. The real problems are that the decision is made just way too early and that the Hauptschulen are a dump for what we call "bildungsferne Schichten" (pc term for people with educational/cultural deficiencies).

Of course. In fact, there are numerous opportunities for graduates from the middle-tier Realschulen to get access to higher education - all paid for by the government. It's again the lower-tier people who usually don't advance. When all your friends, family etc. are from lower working class backgrounds, you don't suddenly take up Algebra II and French, and go to night school. Well, I guess that's the same anywhere in the world.

But don't forget that many apprenticeships can lead to highly-paying and challenging jobs. Fewer people go to college in Germany than in the US, but wages are generally higher. So it's not like everyone except the top tier is doomed to a life in poverty.

 

Whoa, there a lot of good stuff here on page 2 of this thread! I'll have to come back and read it later (in a rush).

The German system offers a free education, based on the scholastic ability of the child, coupled with their interest. What more could you ask?

It's true that intellectual prowess and social intelligence can increase with age, depending on the person. Some people are academic and social idiots at the age of 20, but at the age of 50, they have matured and progressed significantly; while others remain idiots at the age of 50! Nonetheless, it's probably a good idea to help direct our children early in life, based on their demonstrated scholastic abilities. It won't pigeonhole them, but will hopefully give most students direction in life. It doesn't mean that they can't change direction, if they so choose. In the American system, a late bloomer might start off as a broom pusher, but may advance to become a CEO -- if he has the drive and ability.

I simply wish that the American system didn't push the notion that if you're not going to college, then you're a slow learner and are destined for failure. That's obviously an oversimplification, but college isn't a panacea that will make one rich or guarantee one a golden key to success. Success is the ability to find a niche in life, whether it's as a CEO, banker, mechanic, soldier, teachers aide, butcher or whatnot. Success is the ability to find an occupation to support oneself while concurrently contributing to the needs of others/society. Let's direct our young to this end, based on their demonstrated ability and desire.

 

Ahh, I see. In light of your response I can say I overreacted. That is amazing that Germany can afford free college education for it's populace. I can't imagine that ever happening in the U.S. Higher education seems to be a big industry here, and I'm sure would resist the financial cuts it would take to make the universities solely funded by the public. Or the income tax would just have to increase heavily, and I'm sure that would be highly resisted as well. I guess if the income tax would increase heavily, it would almost be like paying off a student loan for the rest of your life. I guess nothing is truly free...

 

And on the flip side. . . be very careful about talking your kids OUT of going to college, as your story points out.

My wife wanted to attend college about an hour and a half away from her home town, and her mom talked her out of it. Granted, I would likely have never met my wife if she had gone to college at that time, but it still frosts me that people will delay/deter their children's growth for silly personal reasons.

 

Well IQ is important my grandfather in the early twentieth century frankly had few students not in the top of their respective schools, and that was minority students in similar schools he has known. The black colleges for example had often serious entry requirements and demands as high as any other school. Serious womens colleges the same. It wasn't just disadvantaged backgrounds educational materials of that period demanded a high level of aptitude for success. For people not earning a Liberal Arts based education there were business colleges and other options, plus a high school diploma also was the gold standard.

As for what to do about education there is a simple solution- serious testing and making sure students get a proper education K-8 in cultural understanding. Then for the next say two years in High School track each students progress by then if they are not cutting it for college get them into two years of commited vocational education. If they are doing ok then a blended track for post-secondary training that could be a two year college. And for the students really doing above average they should maybe get a strong college track. Simple.

As for college again figure out what is needed as far as education to do a profession I see little reason a Medical School can't have a five year track devoted just to training medical doctors. Law School what about a five year Law School program ending in a J.D. skipping. Just skip the four year degrees for a focuses shorter program. For me its not about much more than the cost college is expensive and adding two years adds to the expense. And is the extra unrelated coursework necessary for these or other professions?

 

It is interesting that you should say this because,as I understand it, this is essentially the system that is used in the UK and across Europe. Their Bachelors level degrees are much more focused than the American equivalents which tend to have a broader, liberal arts philosophy. I suppose that there's something to be said for each approach. It might mean that you would be more successful in finding a degree program that really fits your needs outside the USA. I've thought of this myself on numerous occasions.

 

I believe the degree programs in Europe or even Australia are more applied and shorter in length because the students get much of the liberal arts stuff out of the way in HS. In the US, the quality of education in HS school is so poor that many students need refresher classes in college.

I was no exception to this either. I went to a public technical high school that actually ranked well among high schools in the US. I had four years of science, math, English, and sociology/history. Even though I passed Pre-Calculus with a B+ average my senior year of high school, I got a D in College Algebra my freshmen year of college.

If high schools can get better at teaching the kids the required skills needed for college, we could probably have accelerated bachelors degree programs that extend only two or three years.

 

I could not agree more. Any debate or discussion on the "worth" of Degree X MUST take into account what the person plans to do with it. I think that is a fair question! I can not tell you the number of times that I have asked someone why they are getting an MIS only to get a blank stare or something about "well I got a BS in Computer Science, so..."

I'm not going to go so far as to say that people who don't know what they are doing shouldn't be in school, because I think that you learn and grow as a college student. And you could find your passion there. But certainly don't blame others for your lack of a plan.

With a BA in nearly anything, you run the risk of having to do a crap-job until you get where you want to be. I'm okay with that, although it's likely that while in grad school I'll wind up getting orders barked at me by a 2nd-year BSRN student.

 

This really does apply broadly IMO. I currently make $2.50 less than another person at a part-time job even though we literally do the same job on the exact same projects. He has a BS in Game Design IIRC, which is a kinda-related field. I like the guy, but I do think it's unfair.

 

(sorry I never see an edit button when I need one)

I can see that argument to a point. As a psychologist, I won't use college algebra at all. And generally the "you can use it in daily life" argument doesn't wash with me. I'll never need to know the square root of negative one pounds of peaches. Now Bioethics or Neuroscience would be great, but neither are required. And if you were a User Interface Designer, you'd need to have an IS and programming background or studies -- but many UI designers had an emphasis on counseling psychology rather than research.