??? Scups ???

Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

#1 - I am professional in my field, with or without a college degree. Don't tell me I'm not getting a quality education because I graduated from a nationally accredited school. I'm a graduate from a RA and DETC school(s) and have personal expereince with both. Trust me when I tell you there is no difference in academic quality and rigor.

#2 - Name the companies that will not accept a DETC degree. I've already placed this challenge. If you find a company that says "RA only" I will educate the ignorant company on accreditation and get the rule changed.

#3 - I also work as a cop. My department paid for part of my DETC degree and they wouldn't have if it was not properly accredited. The state of Texas needs to rethink their policy and will after federal law is put into place. If you don't want to challenge them, that's your choice. My choice would be to challenge the rule and get it reversed, but that's just me. You don't have to sue people to get things accomplished.

#4 - And leading into that......I'm not going to sue the company. I would educate them on accreditation.

#5 - I don't have any data to provide you. But, I can tell you I was putting my application in at the FBI and they WILL accept DETC degrees. I decided to stay with a local agency for many different reasons. The Dept of Homeland Security has partnered with a DETC school to provide their staff with continuing education.

And lastly, no one is taking a chance by getting a DETC accredited degree. There is no "personal enrichment" involved. It's about getting an affordable quality education. If you're basing only your degree to obtain employment, you've got to look beyond that. You need much more than a RA degree to gain employment.

As I've said, I'm one to fight the system and work towards change. I believe the DETC will become the gold standard in distance education, like they've been doing for the last 75+ years. If you just want to walk away and say "oh well, I guess its RA only" that's your personal decision.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

I hope that DETC does continue to get better acceptance. They have been doing DL for a long time and are likely good at it. I have never attended a DL school before and cannot speak to that with any expertise.

I do think that DETC DOES limit employment chances, as we have seen already. Remember that cop that posted because he couldn't get the job he wanted due to his DETC degree? That's a limitation with a DETC degree. Federal does seem to be more accepting of DETC than local/state.

I think that RA will continue to be the gold standard, though. If you have to keep "fighting" the questions on DETC accredited degrees it can't possibly be close to gold standard. Keep up the fight, though. Maybe you will be the first line through making it easier for others.

Personally, if I am pressed with candidates from DETC and RA schools I am willing to give each an interview and then hire the best candidate. Chances are that DETC isn't going to have any candidates for scientific areas, though.

 

I agree but I think that he meant CA state "accreditation".

 

jagmct1: "#2 - Name the companies that will not accept a DETC degree. I've already placed this challenge. If you find a company that says "RA only" I will educate the ignorant company on accreditation and get the rule changed."

John Bear: OK, let's start with Microsoft.

From their website
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/office2004/howtobuy/howtobuy.aspx?pid=qualifiedUser
----------------------------------------------------------------
Qualified Educational-User Qualifications
A. FULL OR PART-TIME STUDENT: You must be an enrolled student at an accredited...institution. In order to be considered an accredited institution, the institution must be...institutionally accredited by a Regional Institutional Accrediting Agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education...

Accreditation by a National Institutional or Specialized Accrediting Body alone does not qualify an educational institution as accredited for purposes of determining Your status as a Qualified Educational User.
----------------------------------------------------------------
When you've fixed this one, let me know, and I'll give you some more from my list.

 

Isn't this a bit like God talking to Adam in the Garden of Eden? You know nothing good can come from it. An apple anyone?

 

Well of course there are companies that will not accept DETC degrees. I know that for a fact. But I also know there are plenty of companies, and RA schools for that matter, which will not accept distance education coursework of ANY kind...RA or not. As I have said before, those are companies I would not want to work for anyway. That kind of thinking tells me the corporate culture at said company is either snobbish, ignorant or backward thinking. As for the Microsoft quote...I couldn't really make sense of it, and I write for a living. They need to make that a bit more clear. What is a "National Insitutional or Specialized accrediting body alone?" Using that standard, they could be talking about AACSB accreditation, or ABA accreditation. I agree...Microsoft should rethink that policy. Heck, Bill Gates is a college DROPOUT...where does the company get off looking down its nose at national accredtiation? Of course they can hire whoever they want...I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

Has a military officer been commissioned based on a DETC degree alone? Well, that's kind of a loaded question. Most officers come from ROTC programs or service academies. I don't know of too many DL schools with an ROTC program. In fact, if you find one, let me know. I'd like to know how they accomplish drills at a distance.

 

By having the distance education stand in front of a full-length mirror of course. Then the student has someone else to compare there drill work against.

For those in need of a refresher in basic drills.

 

Now, for your DETC ROTC major, wouldn't you have residency requirements of one weekend a month and two weeks every summer?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this appears to be qualifications to purchase educational-user software. I'm looking for a JOB that disqualifies an individual, not qualifications to purchase SOFTWARE. And, I do understand and realize there are limitations in the academia field that requires an RA degree.

 

A few other examples

Here is teacher certification...

http://www.k12.wa.us/certification/teacher/teachercertificatetypes.aspx

"Earned a bachelor's or higher degree in an endorsement area from a regionally accredited college/university."

You cannot teach unless you have certification. To get certification you must have an RA degree in WA.

Same at http://www.teachinvirginia.org/faq.asp

Jobs at Erie County...

http://www.erie.gov/employment/42-105.phtml

"Graduation from a regionally accredited or New York State registered four year college with a bachelor's degree in any field..."

Landscape Architect jobs...
http://www.landscape.cornell.edu/jobs.html

"MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS:

(a) Graduation from a regionally accredited college or university, or one accredited by the NYS Board of Regents to grant degrees with a Bachelor‚s degree in Planning, Urban Geography, Landscape Architecture, Environmental Studies, Government, Business Administration, Public Administration, Economics or a related field;"

Director of Community Education...
http://www.brazosport.cc.tx.us/~bchr/

"Master’s degree from a regionally accredited college or university;"

etc...

 

TCord1964: But I also know there are plenty of companies, and RA schools for that matter, which will not accept distance education coursework of ANY kind...RA or not.

JBear: This is a reminder about how little we really know about these data. Rich did a modest survey of HR people and I did a modest survey of academic people, but as far as I know there has never been a major survey of attitudes and policies -- just lots of anecdotal and small number stuff.

During my seven years of marketing the Heriot-Watt University distance MBA in the US, we kept careful track of acceptance. I don't have access to all the numbers any more, but I do know that of the first 1,000 decision situations (companies being asked if they would accept and in some cases pay for) there was higher than 98% acceptance. A hundred or so were initially negative, but when they learned more, they approved. The approvers included more than 70 of the Fortune 100 and 8 of the Fortune 10.

Yes, this is anecdotal, too, albeit with higher numbers. But won't it be nice if/when someone gets a decent-sized grant and does the major research we all want or need.

 

You're absolutely correct. It's an excerpt from an end-user educational qualification concerning software licensing, specifically Office 2004 for Macintosh. It states what qualifies a school to be an institutional educational end-use licensee, in other words a purchaser. However, it is not in any way a qualification concerning students or job seekers.

Of course it would not make sense to qualify DETC schools for widespead end-user educational licensing for software since DETC students study from home and supply their own computers. That would mean a free copy of the entire Office 2004 Suite included in the tuition for thousands of DETC students, which they would keep on their home computers once completing their DETC education. That would be a poor business decision for Microsoft since there are a few DETC diploma programs out there that cost less than a new copy of Office 2004. So that would seem to be a cheap way to get a copy of the entire Office 2004 suite even for those not interested in any 'career diploma', and word would certainly spread of the bargain. By the way, Microsoft does not allow DL students in RA programs to qualify for educational end-user licensing either, since those students also study at home and supply their own computers. So in that sense Microsoft is indeed treating NA and RA equally.

As far as career opportunities, Microsoft is known in the west as a company that frequently does not even require degrees, so it's unlikely that RA or NA is going to make much difference in their hiring or promotion policies.

Microsoft's career search site seems to bear that out, here's a few excepts from that, followed by the site link:

Microsoft Career Search Site

Kit

 

Re: A few other examples

With the exception of the landscape architect and the OP job in Erie County, the remaining positions are jobs at RA schools. As I've said, there is some limitation in academia.

 

Officer Candidate School is a commissioning program for those who have the appropriate collegiate education.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

This is one example of a student that ran into difficulties with a DETC degree and I believe the state was Texas. I challenged the student to challenge this rule and educate the state of Texas on accreditation and make them realize there is more than just RA.

You can't claim because the state of Texas has this ignorant rule that this applies to all other local/state agencies. I know for a fact that California accepts DETC degrees and you can rapidly obtain advanced law enforcement state certification with having a bachelor's or master, regardless if it is RA or NA.

Any federal agency will accept a DETC degree. It's more than just "more accpeting." I mean come on, NA is recognized by the US Dept of Education. Why would a federal agency snub their nose at a DETC degree?

 

Re: Re: A few other examples

How many do you want? You said, "If you find a company that says "RA only" I will educate the ignorant company on accreditation and get the rule changed. " I found more than one.

Jamie, I am not questioning your educational experience either. I am just saying this is how it is.

One more note on Federal(and another job by the way). If you consider the Air Force part of the Federal government, which I do, you will find that you cannot get into Officer Training School unless you have an RA degree. So, you see the Feds do require RA from time to time and so my comment on the Feds being "more accepting" is still valid. It's not a blanket acceptance everywhere in the Feds. See here...

http://ots.afoats.af.mil/BOT/BOT%20Apply.htm

" Eligibility Requirements
"To apply for OTS, you are required to be either a graduate of a regionally accredited college or university or a college senior who is available to depart for training within 365 days if you are a civilian or member of a non-USAF service branch or 270 days if you are a USAF service member."

 

Unlike a lot of situations where the policy stipulates RA, but we wonder if that's just because they know about RA and didn't think about NA, Microsoft has explicitly excluded accreditation from agencies like DETC. No grey area there.

 

This confuses ROTC with duty in the Reserves.

ROTC students attend school full-time. Their ROTC classes are for credit and part of their curriculum. They attend an academic class each semester, along with a leadership laboratory of some sort. In addition, they participate in many extra-curriculuar activities during the school year, and have various activities in the summer. ROTC cadets and midshipmen are not--except for those on scholarship--paid anything during their first two years of study. Upperclassmen are paid a tiny stipend and, in some cases, receive scholarships. Their time in ROTC does not count as active service for pay and/or retirement purposes.

No DL school has--or could have--an ROTC program.

The examples we've seen of ROTC instructors having master's degrees are interesting, but irrelevant. You cannot assume their degrees are acceptable to the schools at which they teach. Here's why: Army and Navy nstructors do not have to have master's degrees to teach ROTC. Their host universities can accept them as lecturers based on their bachelor's degrees. (Many do ROTC duty so they can also take their master's degrees at the host school.)

Air Force ROTC requires its instructors to have master's degrees before assuming their assignments, and are assigned as assistant professors. If you found an AFROTC instructor who (a) had a master's from a DETC-accredited school and (b) that person was also appointed as an assistant professor, then you might have something.

 

Yeah. John and I both created valuable, but limited data. Both of us described the acceptability issue (he with registrars, me with employers), but neither of us made "WHY" the central question. I touched upon it in my conclusions, but that merely set the stage for further study. Hmmm.....

 

Maybe MSFT has picked their market well. One of the reasons to have RA schools get their software cheaply is to get it in the hands of kids so that they are well versed, and comfortable, with Microsoft solutions even after they graduate. "Grow them up with Micorosoft". They go into companies and then bring MSFT software knowledge with them. Maybe even purchasing Microsoft solutions, or having decision authority for purchases.

DETC schools are non-resident schools, at least I don't know of any that have residents, and the student body will be older there, generally already in the workforce. Maybe MSFT figures that those people can pay for the software.

I don't know. Just a stab in the dark at this one.