RA’s don’t actually discriminate against DETC it turns out;just no one had asked them

+1. What Ted says.

 

Have you done research on what percentage of graduate schools explicitly use the term “regionally accredited” in describing an acceptable undergraduate degree?

My guess is that it’s a small percentage.

 

No. But scientists aren't interested in guesses.

 

A Google search for pages containing both of the terms "admissions requirements" and "regionally accredited" turns up 23,500 results. Substitute "CHEA" for "regionally accredited" and you get 1,010 results. Substituting in "DETC" nets only 464 results. That's 50-1 in favor of RA.

 

Arguably, ACCSCT might be an NA, though some consider ACCSCT to be a PA for tech schools.

WGU is also simultaneously RA/NA through NCA and DETC.

 

There can't be 23,500 colleges in the US that require RA for admission to their graduate program. This is however on my agenda for the ongoing project. We will be considering not only what the accreditors say but also what the colleges themselves specify in print and what they say when asked.

Note too, some of your 464 hits for "DETC" and "admissions requirements" may be specific declinations of DETC - we only know if we read the page. There are 641,000 pages that reference "DETC" in a google search. I think we'll just read the 4100 college web pages and catalogs instead.

 

Admittedly, the "plug search terms into Google" method is somewhat unscientific.

 

Do we know this to be true? Can we say that there are not employers (or colleges) that would simply disregard a UoP degree? I"ve read threads on this board that claim that a UoP (and similar) degree isn't a very high utility credential in higher education for example. Understanding that the DETC credential is viewed in about the same light, aren't they pretty close to equal in many cases? I'm not asking whether this is right or just, but whether it is the prevailing view.

I think this begins to point to why many RA schools won't accept DETC transfer - it's an issue of reputation (or perception) of the awarding college. I think too, there is the issue of DL bias here. That bias must give some as more and more "traditionals" begin teaching online.

I propose that there is no prevailing condition wherein all RA degrees are always acceptable simply because they are RA and all DETC are always unacceptable because they are DETC; while still maintaining that the RA degree does presently have more utility.

I should have paid better attention in philosophy when we discussed such arguments...

 

Are you kidding or being funny? This is exactly the type of half baked nonsense that clouds the issue. It is important to research these questions without a bias. Doing google searches and finding non-sense that you think supports an opinion is not what we need.

I don’t mind naysayers and RA bigots, but let’s try, this one time, to get some real data.

 

The more I read this, and talk to people, the more I am thinking that NA, as a category, is a bit contrived and something that we have gotten used to on this board. It is probably better to use actual names of accrediting institutions, otherwise I think the information that comes back will be muddy..

 

I think you and AviTerra are agreeing here.

 

The DETC web site says that students were 70% successful getting their credits transferred. I don’t know if this is 70% compared to 99% or to 80% or what.

I may also point out that there seem in my mind to be 5 issues. Transfer of credits / acceptance of degrees as entry into the next higher program / acceptance of DETC credentials in the public sector / acceptance of DETC credentials in the private sector / acceptance of DETC credentials as teaching credentials.

This research is fantastic, can it be added in its own sticky thread?

 

NA, in the context of a discussion comparing NA to RA, always means institutional accreditation. There are regional accrediting bodies and national accrediting bodies that accredit at the institution level - NCA and SACS being examples of the former and DETC and ACICS being examples of the latter.

CHEA makes this distinction clear for anyone that wants to see the list at www.chea.org

 

The question is in what percentage of cases is your statement correct?

If your statement applies to a small (< 20%) percentage of graduate schools, then IMO, it has no bearing on the undergraduate degree’s value. Even if your statement is correct in a significant-minority percentage of cases (33-50%), the conclusion you are drawing; that one has no reason to consider a DETC degree due to lower acceptance, is unconvincing. A student can still attend the majority of graduate programs.

What’s needed is simple research. Check the websites of a sample of graduate programs. Distribute the sample by degree type and university type. See which schools use the term RA and which use either the general term “accredited” or the more specific “accredited by an agency recognized by etc.”

I’ll leave it to the scientists here to determine the sample size.

 

Presumably, the distinction is that national accreditation (and regional accreditation, too) are institutional accreditation and, as such, accredit entire schools while professional accreditation is programmatic accreditation and, as such, accredits departments and programs within institutions of higher education.

The questions then become, for example:
(a) free-standing law school accredited by ABA - programmatic accreditation or institutional accreditation?
(b) free-standing school of psychology accredited by APA - programmatic accreditation or institutional accreditation?
(c) free-standing seminary, bible college, or religious school accredited by ATS, ABHE, or TRACS - programmatic accreditation or institutional accreditation?
(d) free-standing tech school accredited by ACCSCT - programmatic accreditation or institutional accreditation?
... and so on.

 

David,

The mere fact that I disagree with you does not constitute proof of any bias on my part. I entered this thread by responding to a very specific point from AviTerra, who claimed that accreditation matters less for graduate school applicants than standardized test scores, especially for top tier programs. That simply isn't true, as Rich and others in a position to know have stated repeatedly.

I appreciate and respect your accomplishments - you are an inspiration to anyone who is considering a DL or online program, but I resent your characterization of those who disagree with you as "naysayers and bigots". I am a realist. I chose to do my DL programs with my eyes open, knowing that there is a prejudice that exists against degrees earned by non-traditional means. For me, the convenience and flexibility outweighed the negatives. That doesn't mean the negatives don't exist, and that I won't have to deal with the consequences of my decisions for the rest of my career.

The prejudice against non-traditional learning is diminishing, but it hasn't disappeared. You're right when you say it's a useful exercise to periodically measure the acceptability of DETC degrees, and in fact, I'd extend that to non-traditional degrees of any sort. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it's productive to hold up special cases as an example of what's generally possible for DETC degree holders. Over and over on this thread, you insist that we must examine the cases at the margin - compare the top 5 DETC schools with the bottom 5 RA schools, or examine the acceptability of specific schools. The problem with this line of reasoning is that most people don't live at the margin, and what holds true at the margin does not necessarily hold true for the vast majority of cases.

The purpose of this board, at least as far as I understand it, is to discuss distance learning programs and for the community to help people discover the options that work best for them. That sort of discussion invariably means that "rules of thumb" will be developed. That's why we refer to Excelsior, COSC, and TESC as "The Big 3" - because for many people who come here seeking advice, one of these three schools fits their need perfectly. That's also why many people here advocate RA schools for people who want to teach or eventually pursue graduate work. It's the path of least resistance. It doesn't mean it can't be done another way.

If someone was asking me for advice on building a house, I'd recommend he or she purchase some power tools. It doesn't stop them from going out and trying to build their house using only a Swiss Army Knife if that's what they really want to do. But if I built my house using a Swiss Army Knife, and someone asked me how they should build theirs, I shouldn't let what I did in the past cloud my perceptions of what might be best for someone else. That's the very definition of bias, and I think it's the trap that you and AviTerra are falling into.

 

Hi Fortunato:

I’m going to play an active role in changing things in the DETC / DL acceptance space. To do that, focus must be put on change, and moving in the right direction. I appreciate your ability to characterize how things are, and if you believe you are doing a public service buy helping a person make good decisions, that’s great. I have a different agenda, which is to help move this space forward.

I’m very comfortable with conflict, and didn’t realize you were not, so I’m sorry you resent some of my comments, and for that I apologies to you. This does not change my opinion about an approach to reiterate current state, I tend to separate the person from the opinion. BTW, is Fortunato your first or last name?

DEL

 

The search was simple word matches conducted by a machine. That's inherently less biased (and less informative) than concocting possibly loaded survey questions and then choosing who receives them.

The results tell us that the phrases "admissions requirements" and "regionally accredited" are 50 times more likely to appear together on webpages than "admissions requirements" and "DETC".

That looks like good data to me. It's certainly suggestive, but it needs to be pursued a lot farther before anyone can draw credible conclusions from it.

It might be helpful to avoid calling individuals with different opinions "RA bigots".

 

I certainly want to avoid any bias at all around any survey, I’m with you there. But, are you suggesting that ANY survey done on this topic is going to be bias?

Fair enough, and as with much typing that reads different that it was intended, although I’ll point out, as I have said many times, that I am a DETC bigot and make no qualms about it.