RA’s don’t actually discriminate against DETC it turns out;just no one had asked them

I neither agree or disagree generally with what you are saying here. Can you prove your assertion with any reliability though? That's what those here are really asking. It's not about "I think....." it's all about what research indicates. As far as I know, there is no existing study of Tier 1 acceptance of DETC credentials for graduate admission. Even the study we're discussing right now is more about undergraduate transfer.

I'm not sure that your final statement/conclusion is true. That the USDoE finds DETC to be an approved accreditor doesn't imply that they consider them to be equal to all others. Do they have any employees with a DETC degree themselves? This is a completely separate discussion.

I also don't agree that personal achievement is as low as you place it. In my field, music - personal achievement is often the single highest (at least first) consideration for admission and it is tested in person (audition) before admission. Standardized test score are often not even required and when they are, they are far below the impact of the audition (personal achievement). I believe this is true in all of the arts.

Reality is, whether we like it or not, that there is indeed a difference in the general acceptance of RA vs DETC degrees at all levels and by all organizations. It may or may not be fair or even based in facts. It does exist. The purpose of research such as this is to determine to what degree this difference (bias) exists and why. Only then can people like DLady continue with attempts to remediate the issue.

In academic research, we have to ask that you cite or prove that statement you've made -- without such citation or proof, many will simply assign it status as your opinion. You are welcome to your opinion just as "Rich and others" are entitled to disagree; the debate is good because it brings in points we may not have considered. I then ask - which of you is correct? Prove it.

 

I've always liked the name Fortunato, great pick Verlin.

- macattack (Jesse)

 

Fascinating hierarchy. Where did you find this?

 

Unfortunately, the USDoE isn't telling your employer to treat you equally if you have a degree from an NA school, nor is it telling your graduate school to treat your degree equally when you apply for admission.

Degrees from schools accredited by the DETC only, those without regional accreditation or foreign equivalent, are less accepted in academic and employment circles. That is an observable fact. To what extent is the question, and is that margin shrinking?

We have information on this subject that is 7 (academic admissions) and 4 (employment) years old. Someone is suggesting a new look at the topic? Great. Go for it. Please report the results. In the mean time, all the wailing about USDoE and CHEA treating NA the same as RA is fine, but it doesn't impact the question the least little bit.

 

Umm, I'm not expressing a disagreeing "opinion." I wrote a doctoral dissertation on this subject. And I conducted the statistical analyses, with substantive comments regarding the results, on John's AACRAO survey, too.

I look forward to you or anyone else pursuing this question further.

 

The requirements only require an "accredited" degree:

It's interesting that it didn't specify what kind of accreditation was required. I'm glad you got the job.

 

Fighting for acceptance of the Euro in the United States

Regional accreditation is simply the bartering standard that many RA institutions choose to abide by. Can a RA institution accept DETC credits? Sure, but it's generally done on a case-by-case basis because DETC credits and degrees aren't on the RA bartering plan. As a United States citizen, you can also choose to accept foreign currencies, but it isn't the norm and you'll only do it on a case-by-case basis -- and you certainly won't accept any old foreign currency as barter without investigating it a little bit deeper. The RA bartering system is widely accepted by RA institutions to make the transfer of credits and degrees somewhat uniform; most RA institutions conform to generally accepted standards, which makes the transfer of RA degrees easier. Maybe someday RA institutions will more freely accept DETC credits and degrees, but that day is not today and it is, IMO, an uphill battle. Maybe someday the Euro will also be freely accepted at the local 7-11 in the United States, but that day is not today and it too is an uphill battle.

For all of these reasons, I always steer potential students to RA institutions. Having an RA Bachelors degree makes it much easier to obtain valid teaching credentials (k-12). Having an RA Masters degree makes it much easier to obtain a teaching job at a local community college. Having an RA Doctorate makes it much easier to obtain a research position or a teaching position at a RA university. If pursuing and obtaining a DETC degree meets your requirements, then by all means "go for it:" but it's also important to understand the limitations of DETC credits and degrees.

While you're in Rome, the Euro will meet all of your financial needs; but here in the United States, the local supermarket may not accept the Euro, except on a case-by-case basis. The same is true for the acceptance of DETC degrees.

 

Although there may be no stated policy of RA accreditors to discriminate against NA degrees, I've always felt that if TESC, COSC, or Excelsior ever wanted to accept NA credits with no review in a similar manner as they accept RA credits, transferable in an amount up to the full degree, the RA agencies would certainly object. Too bad we will never know whether this is true unless one of those schools does attempt to implement such a policy.

 

Is this discussion DETC vs. RA? or NA vs. RA?

If BYU Independent Study is accepted by DETC will that make them DETC and RA?

If so, will their DETC Courses be transferable as RA credits?

Will they accept transfer credits from other DETC Schools?

Are there other DETC RA Schools? What are their policies?

DETC RA might be a good way to "Bridge The Gap"

 

I wasn't challenging your results - I respect those findings. My comment was directed elsewhere, though I didn't make that clear. My apologies.

 

No offense taken; no apology necessary. As I said earlier, I hope you go for it. This is a dynamic subject that could use more research.

 

In my exeperience, me again's analogies are spot on and I can provide a data point that is consistent with me again's comments:

I teach (full-time, tenured) at a large, high-3rd-tier public institution. Under the graduate admission policy in our catalog, we require an "accredited" undergraduate degree, but do not reference RA specifically for admission purposes.

However, our admission process includes a check of whether each transcript received is from an RA institution. All non-RA transcripts are flagged in the packet that goes to the reviewer of the application. A non-RA undergraduate degree will result in the application going to an admissions committee even where the gpa and GRE/GMAT score would normally qualify for an automatic admission. As a member of the graduate admission committee for one of our programs, I would look beyond the degree for evidence that the applicant would be successful in our program. In general, we have not had good experiences with the very few domestic non-RA credentialed students that we have admitted. However, I could make the same statement for students with undergraduate degrees from certain 4th-tier RA institutions.

That being said, our catalog policy states that we only accept transfer credit at the graduate-level from regionally-accredited institutions. I am a member of a graduate admissions committee for a specific degree program and I do not recall ever accepting a course in transfer from a domestic non-RA institution. We have, on a limited basis, accepted courses from foreign institutions.

At the undergradaute level, we have the same process of flagging non-RA transcripts in the admission process. We do allow the transfer of non-RA undergraduate courses with the approval of a dean. In most cases, non-RA courses will also be referred to the appropriate academic department(s) to determine acceptability. However, any non-RA credit is posted only after the student has completed fifteen semester hours at my institution with a suitable gpa.

Conversely, credit from RA institutions may be accepted in transfer upon matriculation without a dean's approval. While some RA transfer courses are referred to academic departments, it is typically to determine course equivalency for meeting a specifc requirement, rather than transferability. I would expect that referrals to academic departments are far less likely for RA courses but do occur.

I would expect a lot of institutions to handle applications involving non-RA academic credit in a similar manner. I hope this example is of use to anyone attempting to study the acceptability of DETC degrees.

 

Another Data Point

I share foobar's and me again's observations. My school (a small, private engingeering focused school) does require RA (or foreign equivalent) for admission to grad programs. We accept transfer credit at the undergrad and grad level, and in all the cases I'm familiar with transfer credit comes from RA schools.

One can hope for the day that NA schools are as well received as RA schools, but for now it simply isn't the case. Transfer credit is tough enough RA to RA. Students lose credit so often due to differences in curriculum. Trying to transfer NA to RA - or gain admission to an RA grad program after earning a bachelors at an NA school - is a tough up-hill battle.

I suspect that many schools that simply say "accredited" in their literature mean "RA".

There may be some wonderful DETC schools out there - but if your goal is transfer or admission to grad school, I'd forget it and go RA.

Regards - Andy