Oregon

I believe that Oregon has made a nice step in progress ahead of the other states. Degree mills and claiming false credentials is becoming a bigger problem and Oregon seems to have come up with a system that goes a long way in correcting this wrong at least within their state. I also appreciate Alan Contreras' informative posts.

 

I believe that the comparison was stretched far beyond what it was intended to show.

I don't see how freedom of speech is supposed to be applied to bring down the Oregon law. The law says that certain degrees can't be used within Oregon. Please give me a straight forward example as to how you think this violates someone's right to freedom of speech.

Thanks,

 

Ok, one last try.

You're at a business lunch in Portland. Someone asks you about your education. You say you have a BA from USC. Someone else asks if you attended graduate school. You have a Masters degree from a California approved school.

If you say you never attended graduate school you're lying. If you tell the truth you've committed a crime.

 

If you lie about your degree and say you don't have one you could be committing a fraud. If you tell the truth, you are committing a crime also.

By jove, you have hit the nail on the head.

 

As I understand the Oregon law (I'm not a lawyer) you could just truthfully answer and no law would be broken.

So let me change it a little bit. Instead of a business lunch, say it was an interview for a job. You didn't put the Masters on your resume because you wanted to follow Oregon law. You can truthfully and legally answer, "I graduated from CCU with a masters degree but did not specify that on my resume because that degree is not recognized in Oregon."

On your resume I bet you could even legally say that you took classes from CCU as long as you didn't claim to hold a Masters degree.

I don't see any problem with the right to freedom of speech here?

 

I think y'all are over-reacting a bit. Sure, you can tell someone that you got a degree from a school that isn't accredited. You can tell someone you got a degree from a school on the ODA's "illegal for use" list. Heck, you can tell someone that you sent off $500 and got a lovely framed document declaring you a Master of the Universe or a Doctor of Whatever.

Just don't expect to use the latter two degrees as qualification for a position or promotion in Oregon. The first -- who knows? ODA doesn't ban use of all California-state-approved degrees.

 

This seems to completely agree with my understanding. Except perhaps for the "y'all" comment, since you are not from Texas I believe that it may be an illegal use of dialect.

 

No. You're allowed to hold such a degree. You're just not allowed to use it to further your personal or professional position.

Ergo, the conversation at the company lunch would go like this:

"Munch. Munch. Dude! Nice to see you could make it to our little lunch! Munch."

"Thanks! Man, did you catch those McGillicutty sisters playin' volleyball with that poodle down on the beach?"

"That was something, eh? Munch. Say... y'know ... we've been needing someone to clean up some code we've been havin' some troubles with. Need a job?"

"Dude! Yeah, been between jobs lately, y'know?"

"Jim says you're a whiz with a computer."

"That's nice of Jim to say!"

"Yeah, I think you'd be a shoe in for a job opening we have, actually. Munch."

"Really? Full time?"

"Yup."

"That would be great!"

"Yeah, ain't it something you worked with Jim. That's the reason I told him to invite you to the YoyoDyne lunch, actually. Wink wink, say n'more."

"Hehe.... I thought that was a bit strange."

"There's just one thing."

"Yes?"

"Well -- and this is just Janet over in HR speakin' here mind you -- not me -- but hehe... you know ... formality and all. You got any degrees? Just a ticket -- formality you know -- but YoyoDyne has this policy, see."

"Ummm...."

"You got any degrees?"

"A doctorate in computer science."

"Oh man! So you're Dr Dude!"

"No."

"Dude! You just said you have a doctorate."

"Yes."

"Then you're Dude, Ph.D., right?"

"No."

"Now I'm confused."

"Well, I have a doctorate. It's legal in California."

"Dude! Just what I thought, Dude, Ph.D."

"No."

"Munch. Munch. C'mon man, this is gettin' old. You either are are you aren't man. Which is it?"

"Well..."

"Hey, Joe! C'mere a minute will ya? Hey, Joe, this is Dude. You know, the one Jim's been tellin' us about."

"Hey, Dude. Yeah, Jim's been on about you."

"Anyway, Joe, Dude here says he holds a doctorate, which I say should get him by Janet in HR in an instant."

"Dr. Dude!"

"No! No! No!"

"What's got into you, Dr. Dude?"

"NO! NO!"

"Dude, Ph.D., right?"

"Ah t'hell with it! YES! YES! Dr. Dude! Dude, Ph.D.!!! Y'happy? DOCTOR DUDE!"

"FREEEZE! Office of Degree Authorization! You are under arrest for unauthorized use of a degree!"

"Whoah! Who invited you to this lunch? We didn't expect the ODA to be here today."

"NOBODY expects the ODA!"

"Wow, Jim, look at them cart Dude away. Amazing! Hey, did you catch them McGillicutty sisters down on the beach with the poodle?"

 

I fail to see the Catch 22 scenario.

The polite (and truthful) reply would be that you respectfully decline to answer the question (although you might want to dispense with the familiar, “on the grounds that it might incriminate me” ). Alternatively, you could simply state that you are invoking your right under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

You could, if you wished, elaborate and explain that it is because you received a diploma (important word choice—you would not be claiming a doctorate or any other degree) from an unaccredited institution, the use of which is illegal in the State of Oregon (this would not, in all likelihood, violate any laws).

Of course, if you were feeling particularly gumptious, you could always tell them that if they would take the trouble to accompany you to the California border, you would be more than happy to regale them with labyrinthine tales as to why your degree should be considered equivalent to one from a regionally accredited school.

 

Why spend $500 when the American College Ph.D. is available for $199?

 

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I believe your last try is a misapplication of ODA regs!

 

All right, who are the McGillicutty sisters? I would like to meet THEM (but you can keep the poddle).

Kind regards

 

I don't understand your apparent argument that just because a degree might be "legal" in one state it must be legal in all states. Why does there have to be this rule? What sort of legal argument are you basing this on?

 

I believe its called reciprocity.

Michael

 

Interstate rendition is mandatory, not discretionary, although there have been exceptions (Maryland refused to rendite the infamous Willie Horton back to Massachusetts until he served his sentence in MD). BTW...interstate is rendition, international is extradition. It always aggravates me when I see the press screw up those terms.

I think you're getting "full faith and credit" mixed up with the full faith & credit clause to the Constitution. That is the reason why a valid marriage in one state is valid in all of them, you can imagine the chaos otherwise.

However, even that has limitations. For instance, no state is legally bound to recognize a concealed weapons permit from any other state, even though some do.


Bruce

 

I had a case several years ago. The man in question was in his 40's, was married with children, owned a house and a business and was an upstanding member of the community, all here in New York. I received a call from him one day, he had been arrested on an out of state warrant from Maryland. Seems that when he was 18, he got into some trouble in Maryland, and was sentenced to a year of confinement in Maryland. Approximately a month before his release date, he was raped by two other inmates. The following day he reported it to the warden, who took no action to either punish the others or to protect my client. He did what he had to do to protect himself, which was to run from a work detail. He ended up in New York and over the next two decades built his life. Maryland now wanted him back to finish serving the original sentence and an additional 3-5 years on the escape charge.

A petition was filed with the governors office in New York by the Maryland authorities. We were given a hearing and argued that he took the necessary steps to protect himself and that his escape was warranted under the circumstances. We also argued that he was a valuable member of the community in New York and that to return him to Maryland would serve no useful purpose as it was highly unlikely that he would again break the law, that others would not be driven to escape by his behavior and pure punishment was inappropriate.

The governor of New York (Cuomo) denied the petition and released him. We did however, have to make him aware that if he left the state of New York, he could be arrested and sent back to Maryland. He is, unfortunately, a prisoner in New York.

Wes

 

Let's not rule out the possibility that you could just answer the question, not worrying about the ODA and its toothless--and likely unconstitutional--rules. "Yes, I hold an MBA from California Pacific University" would cause no harm.

Much ado about nothing.

 

It's up to the individual states as which if any certificates, degrees, etc are accepted that were granted in other states. Here's some links that I found that back up my assertion.

http://www.state.vt.us/educ/license/states.htm
http://www.timetoteach.org/reciprocity.cfm
http://www.nraila.org/recmap/usrecmap.htm
http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/reciprocity/reciprocity.asp

I believe that it is clear that reciprocity for degrees/certificates is not any constitutional right. The only thing that I can think of that is probably recognized amongst all 50 states is a marriage license. However, I question that would even be recognized by all 50 states for marriages when involving young adults.

 

Or same-sex marriages.

 

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Bill has some interesting sites. I'll let others argue the application of gun laws as analogous to degree usage. But the fact is, if I were licensed in Oregon (for grammarians I do use the 'if"as a first class condition), --and Oregon has liberal laws re concealed weapon carrying requiring nevertheless classwork and license, we don't mind the "Oregun" derivation--that classwork and that licensing would not be usable in California.

Further, if I loudly announce while in a San Diego restaurant that "I have my Colt 1911 .45 in my pocket just in case there's any trouble" we surely all agree that I might be in some difficulty."

"But officer, you need to go to talk with Oregon. Besides you surely can't arrest me for what I said..free speech you know!"