Online DBA $12,000 TOTAL fee

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by Acolyte, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    If the people operating MIGS had been serious in creating a school that really did its job, it could have helped improve the operations of the home campus. But it was a shallow effort; the people who were involved were either dabbling or, in the case of one person mentioned in this thread, was after a quick buck.
  2. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    The Athena-UCAM setup could be looked at as an issue for people investigating someone's background if they aren't familiar with that type of arrangement, and I think it's safe to say that most people aren't familiar with it. After all, we've had nearly 2 years of debate (mostly attacks against the programs) over a similar setup with propios of lower degree levels where the unaccredited teaching school is offering Master's degrees that the accredited certifying school doesn't offer themselves. Media outlets and the general public have slammed people for having degrees from for-profit or NA schools as if they aren't legitimate, so it's easy to see the possibility of people attacking this in several ways just drawing from the past debates we've had here on this subject:

    "Athena is an unaccredited school! UCAM awards a degree for a program they don't offer! No credential evaluation has come in yet for this program, don't trust it! It's foreign so employers will just throw your resume in the trash" then the obligatory "It's a SCAM!!!" and so on and so forth.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  3. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    Basically the much hated Ous royal Academy is also offering some kind of propio diplomas with their partner schools too.
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't bother with Danzig's unrecognized foreign credential evaluation service. It would be pointless with plenty of recognized ones available. I also would steer clear of it because of the history of her and her organization(s), and I certainly wouldn't get involved with the Centro de Estudios Universitarios school after all of her involvement with it.
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying such an arrangement couldn't be problematic. But it isn't automatically so.

    What I'm saying is that arrangement has nothing to do with the issue of recognizing "degrees" awarded outside a school's recognized scope. It's a scam--on both the students and whomever relies on those degrees.

    (This even if the actual learning process is legitimate, robust, and comparable to other degree programs of that nature. Again, the educational process is separate from the status of the degree(s) issued.)
  6. mintaru

    mintaru Active Member

    I wouldn't necessarily use the word scam, but basically I agree with you.

    Still, I have a question. Would you come to the same conclusion if this degree were not offered in English-speaking countries, but instead in Spanish, and only in countries in which there are also titulo propio degrees?

    In this case, I would actually have no problems with this degree, because then you can assume that everyone involved knows exactly what kind of degree it is.

    In English-speaking countries that is precisely what is not the case, and that is the real problem. In countries where there is no titulo propio, the vast majority of people will consider these degrees to be normal academic degrees, and in fact they are not.
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yes, because the use of such degrees would not be limited to those areas. Mi mundo es su mundo.
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I think you hit the nail here. Azteca does not offer its doctorates to Mexicans because nobody would buy them there, it is very easy to check an RVOE for a program and Azteca does not have this for its doctorates. In other countries, if a University is legit and listed in the World Higher Education Database (WHED), this would be enough for the granted degree to be recognized.
    Spanish schools are figuring out that if Mexican schools are doing it, they should be able to do it as well. Legally, there is nothing illegal about granting propio doctorates just that people from Spain or Mexico would not spend 12K for a propio doctorate that cannot be used for faculty or government positions.
    The legal system in Spain allows Spanish Universities to grant their own degrees so these are legal but cannot be used where official degrees are needed. I believe the Mexican legislation requires the University to print that the degrees are not recognized by the minister of education, I got a Mexican propio degree from CLEA and it states this degree is not official and not recognized so technically unaccredited but legal. I believe Spanish legislation does not require schools to print that the degrees are not recognized so this might lead to abuse as in this case. If the DBA would state "Degree not officially recognized by the minister of education of Spain", then very few would buy this DBA. The DBA transcript looks very official and nowhere states that this degree is not recognized.
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  9. Acolyte

    Acolyte Active Member

    I'm glad this turned into such a robust discussion.
    Reading through it, my key takeaways are:

    1. The utility of this doctorate would be most recognized in Europe, which has overlapping systems of credential equivalencies and accreditation.
    2. Although the degree is legitimate, it is of limited utility - while it may be considered a professional credential for someone in the business world, it does not satisfy the requirements for an academic doctorate.
    3. If you are in the U.S.A. you should probably skip it - even if the education is of high quality, the value of this degree wouldn't be easily recognized by potential employers. However, If you are an independent consultant, entrepreneur, or executive that is secure in their position - it might be of use for personal growth and development.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    4. It can be used to fool people who do not make these distinctions.
  11. Acolyte

    Acolyte Active Member

    PS- Just for everyone's information - I replied to their ad on Facebook of all places and this was their response:

    Titulo Propio or Titulo Oficial? would this be recognized by U.S. accrediting bodies as a true doctorate?

    Athena Global Education
    Hi (MY NAME), Thanks for your interest to know about our Doctorate of Business Administration program from Universidad Catolica De Murcia, Spain. It is equivalent to Level 8 of European Qualification Level, and is globally recognised. The course offers 180 ECTS Credits. The University is accredited by the Ministry of Education, Spain, ANECA, and is a member of ENQA, Universia, and EUA. To know more details about the course and the university, kindly fill the form below & our Admissions Counsellor will assist you with further details on the same.
  12. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    That is a very misleading statement. Yes, the university is accredited but the degree is not official. Basically, they avoided your question by providing a confusing albeit intelligent-sounding answer. In my mind that statement is so close to fraud because they know this is a propio and they are trying to hide it.
    Acolyte and LearningAddict like this.
  13. Acolyte

    Acolyte Active Member

    I agree- it's like when you go to those unaccredited school's websites or those that are accredited by made up bodies with no real standing, and they basically have a disclaimer about how accreditation is a voluntary process and it doesn't mean anything... that said, I wonder how the Universidad Catolica De Murcia feels about the way this is promoted - I mean they are still the degree granting institution - doesn't that make THEM the real perpetrator of "fraud" here, if they are offering a degree that is of no real use...or are we over thinking it, and in Europe (or just in Spain?) It would be considered no big deal for a professional to seek such a credential?
  14. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    I've seen professionals with 8-10 Propio Experts, Postgraduates, and Masters on their LinkedIn profiles, never seen one with a propio Doctorate though.

    Unless UCAM is the one selling this program in this way, I think it's patently unfair to claim that UCAM is defrauding people. This is common practice in Spain, legally authorized and permitted, and they are considered degrees even by the Spanish government - just not officially-recognized. UpGrad sells access to programs from Deakin University and Liverpool and acts like you get guaranteed enrollment even though they really only guarantee enrollment in IMT Gaziabad and IIIT Bangalore with admission to the other universities being discretionary. Is Deakin the one misleading clients or is UpGrad?
  15. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    I looked at UCAM's website and they do not directly offer the DBA. They only offer the DBA through partners like Athena.

    Here you can see they offer all sorts of degrees (wide variety of propio and official) but no DBAs.

    Big question is - does a doctorate titulo propio even exist in Spain? All of the online documentation/summaries from the credential evaluators say a titulo propio in Spain is called master, expert, diploma, course, etc. Nothing on doctorate titulo propios. Is it possible that UCAM does not offer this directly in Spain because they are not allowed to do so? Perhaps that's why they can only offer the DBA through third parties in other countries?

    My spidey senses say stay away from this one.
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    It's expected that they might award their own diploma for a program they don't directly offer, that's a standard arrangement with propios taught by an outside program. But, if UCAM is not also awarding its own degree for this program then that would be the final nail in the coffin for me. I have to believe there are.


    OK, looks like UCAM is awarding its own degrees for the MBA program:

    I don't see a Doctorate diploma example, but I do see an example transcript. They do appear to come straight from UCAM:

    U.S. evaluators seem to evaluate more favorably when the transcript comes straight from the University. On the other hand, I don't know how they would feel about a Doctorate from a Spanish school that wouldn't be acceptable in Spain. This might put them on the road to a blacklisting with some evaluators if they haven't reached that point already.
    smartdegree likes this.
  17. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    Please tell me how you reached your conclusion on "acts like you get guaranteed enrollment".
  18. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    Was just on the site yesterday and applying for the Deakin MBA seemed like an "If you're approved, you are guaranteed a seat at Deakin," but speaking to their chat support shows that approval is only guaranteed acceptance to IMT Ghaziabad's PGDip in Management and then your enrollment at Deakin is discretionary following the PGDip award at the other school.

    Selling a package deal where half the package has hidden contingencies and uncertainty that is not adequately represented in the course listing is a little shady, but I am open to that chat discourse being a miscommunication or misunderstanding.
  19. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    I've never in my life seen a propio doctorate before this one, at least not in Spain. Costa Rica, Mexico, and Italy have a few, but this is the first Spanish one. I'm staying far, far away for this reason alone, especially because the law seems particularly murky about whether any institution can offer an "own title" Doctorado by law. It may be, as you say, that they can't offer it in Spain but can offer it to foreigners, and I'm sure some people will find a use for it, but not this guy.
    smartdegree likes this.
  20. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    I also noticed something odd about the wording in the DBA transcript sample:

    It says "Qualification" in Doctorate of Business Administration. In contrast, the wording UCAM uses for the MBA titulo propio is "UCAM degree".

    This might seem like semantics but I don't think so. I think the wording was chosen very very carefully by UCAM's lawyers to avoid getting sued lol.
    Thorne likes this.

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