Oceania University of Medicine (Online and In Person Clinicals)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. copper

    copper Member

    500 to 1000 hours of clinical training is 3 to 6 months full time training leading to fully autonomous medical provider in many States. A PA receives over 2000 hours of hands on clinical and still has to have a supervising Physician. A Physician receives 4000 hours of clinical training in medical school and 3 to 6 years of post graduate training with over 10,000 hours of experience to be a fully autonomous medical provider. The math doesn't add up for patient safety!

    [/QUOTE]That sounds like a very valid concern. Is this a bigger concern for you than an NP program being online or from a for-profit school?[/QUOTE]

    Yes, clinical experience is very important and how is it validated through distance learning and Uncle Joe the Family doc who supposedly supervises the student? Answer: A signature to submit to professor that hours are completed. It is near impossible to buffalo your clinical experience in a University Hospital setting or random clinic assigned to you by Faculty that are affiliated with the University.

    [/QUOTE]And do we know if what you're concerned about is common across the board for all schools offering NP programs, or do you see it as just an online or for-profit issue? [/QUOTE]

    I think Brick and Mortar Schools with University Hospitals have more at stake as well as the necessary resources to teach their students. The online schools have nurses with a Masters degree in administration going back to online school and pursuing a 500 hour post graduate certificate in a specialty like Psychiatry or Family Practice and somehow get a full autonomous license to practice medicine in their community. Look at the websites of these online NP schools and they are selling a bag of goods! Look at the advertisements stating "work full-time while pursuing a 100% online degree with a weekend intensive and clinicals arranged in your community", "complete your nurse practitioner degree in as little as 12 to 18 months". Really? Does that advertisement distill upon patients a feeling of overwhelming confidence about their medical provider?

    [/QUOTE]If so, then I would say the concern is even more valid, but how can we know for sure?[/QUOTE]

    The only reason NPs have such scope of practice in States across the nation is because they have the hundreds of thousands in their numbers to lobby state legislatures to make laws that allow them that scope! Like I said, a one to two year fellowship with a limited license until completion would greatly enhance patient safety!!
    LearningAddict likes this.
  2. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I read that story. She went through hell. Very inspiring.

    The Nursing lobbyists have done a good job of taking the profession from virtual insignificance to high visibility and responsibility. It was bound to happen that schools would find a way to cash-in on the wave, and boy have they. Copper went nuts a page back and deleted it (hahahaha!) but he makes an excellent point. Being trained in a higher quality situation is more likely to produce better quality medical professionals. However, the world is changing, and education may be changing even faster now because of our current circumstances forcing it online.

    With online medical programs, now is the time to find ways to improve them because they may become the norm at some point, maybe even because they have to be, and it will be interesting to see how states that have taken strong stances against licensing anyone who has had any part of their medical education done online will handle it. The one thing I think we can all agree on, is that the one thing that has to remain is in-person clinicals, but as much as I can tell every legitimate accredited school offering medical programs has them so I see no worry in that regard. Besides, no state is going to license anyone who hasn't had hands-on practice and a certain number of hours anyway and I don't see that ever changing, nor should it.
  3. copper

    copper Member

    Thanks for your insights! I agree, online platforms for medical learning will be the new paradigm for medical education and deserve a hard look for maintaining high standards in education. As a side note, I tried to put Kizmet on my Ignore list but apparently "staff members" cannot be ignored.
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Great post. I see your position entirely now. In New York they mandate 1,000 hours just to become a masseuse and practice independently, so it's crazy that for less hours you can play Doctor Nurse in a number of places. All of those things you touched on are why I've always refused to see an NP. My Doctor even referred me to one once for an issue he doesn't deal with directly and I politely declined. Ambition and differing learning speeds can only equalize so much, and I do believe that hours of training and scope of training do make a difference. It's frightening that the nursing sector has convinced people that this somehow doesn't matter. What issues are NPs missing? What kind of danger are people being put in because of it? I've read some pretty crazy horror stories involving NPs and poor judgments, including one where a child was taken away because the NP called CPS accusing the mother of improperly feeding her child, but even I as a non-physician would've just recommended they go get some tests and possibly an x-ray before making such a rash judgement (that actually turned out to reveal the problem: heart abnormality).

    Who knows how much more is out there that doesn't even make the headlines? Scary thought.
  5. copper

    copper Member

    Look, I am not saying Nurse practitioners are bad at all! There are plenty of excellent training programs out there for NPs and there are outstanding Psych NPs and Wound care NPs and Family, Midwifery, etc.! The emergence of numerous "100% Online" schools with minimal clinical experience is what concerns me the most because the minimums to full autonomous practice are too low and non standard across the country. The fact is, there are poor and excellent clinicians at all levels and the poor ones usually get weeded out by lawsuits. Unfortunately, the patient lives with the injury.
  6. copper

    copper Member

    In a brief search of Nurse Practitioner schools, I discovered a wide variety of admission standards and educational requirements to become a Family Practice NP.

    Without mentioning schools by name,

    School A: Online
    BSN and RN, admitting new graduates with no experience
    Program "100% online" with 500 hours clinical rotations. About 2 years part time and 45 graduate credits leading to a MSN and subsequent licensure.

    School B: B&M Hospital University
    BSN and RN with two or more years experience (some specify type of experience ie: critical care, etc.)
    GRE required and minimum GPA, letters of references, etc.
    Leads to Doctor of Nursing (DNP) in 3 and 1/2 years of on campus study and over a 1000 hours of clinical experience and doctoral project and 88 plus credits.
    Residency and or Fellowships provided as an option after graduation.

    Clearly School A is minimal needed to gain a license as an APRN and School B provides much more. Both graduates have the same License. This begs the question, Are both practitioners equal?

    Historically, Nurse practitioners had years of experience before going to NP school which can perhaps justify the reduction in clinical experience gained in the program. I won't argue a labor and delivery nurse with 10 years plus of experience will make an excellent Midwife and perhaps Women's Health NP. But, that is not what is happening, these Online schools are advertising to brand new BSN nurses to continue on to be a NP in 18 to 24 months of online study and 500 hours of clinicals while still working full time. I hope the differences and lack of standardized curriculum are obvious.
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I think it's safe to say that there will never be 100% uniformity across the country because these standards are set as a matter of state licensing law as it applies to Nurses. Perhaps the standards should be raised. I don't know. I know that admissions requirements for all these programs require that people have already earned an RN credential and so many will be coming in with years of Nursing experience before they even get to their Clinical Practicums. As it is, the schools are simply following the law, regional accreditors and professional accreditors. Your complaint that the required number of clinical hours is too low is obviously an informed opinion but if it's soooo obvious that these programs are substandard then why are they allowed to operate?
  8. copper

    copper Member

    You are on my IGNORE list! (message edited due to insulting content)
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2020 at 4:37 PM
  9. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member


    ... as long as they're supervised by a Doctor :)
  10. copper

    copper Member

    Why is Asiana Airlines allowed to operate into a Visual clear sunny day San Francisco Airport and crash into the dike? The Captain was a Commercial Pilot. how could this be? Was his education "substandard"? Impossible, it must be something else like the automations fault. Bullshit! He is the Captain he should be able to make a landing even in adverse conditions!
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020 at 4:37 PM
  11. copper

    copper Member

    Lets also not confuse For Profit University and Not For Profit university status with the desire for schools regardless of status to attract students and make money! These online schools attract the lowest common denominator with the goal of profit for their school.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020 at 4:39 PM
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I'm ready to merge copper's posts into the Conspiracy Theory thread. It's no surprise that copper has chosen the for-profits to pick on. And of course, they do have a profit motive but this idea, promoted by some, that this automatically makes them evil is not supported by all, or even most members. But even if you give that theory some weight it does not answer the question about 1) the accrediting agencies and 2) the professional organizations and 3) the state licensing boards. They are the ones that actually set the standards. Are they all on the take? Should we widen this conspiracy theory to include every state legislature in the country? Or maybe there's a simpler answer. Maybe what's really going on here is that copper has unrealistic standards and that NONE of the authorities, people whose job it is to actually fully understand this issue, NONE of them agree with copper. If they did then the standards would be different. copper doesn't like the fact that I don't just automatically agree with everything he says. That's OK but if he doesn't show some ability to control himself then someone else might have to do it for him.
  13. copper

    copper Member

  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    Okay, now you're going off the rails. Work for a few schools with different tax statuses and you'll find out they're not particularly different.
  15. copper

    copper Member

    I think you missed the previous post in where I stated the name of a few 100% Online schools and some were non profit and others are for profit but the reality they are all for making money! Anyway, this forum is a freaking Black hole! Moderators that ask stupid questions and don't like the opinions/answers and quite frankly, I don't even see anyone on this forum seriously interested in pursing a medical profession anyway. Just a bunch of self appointed so called educational experts. Have fun!
  16. Garp

    Garp Member

    Copper, I don't have experience in this field. Could one of the reasons that the NP credential requires fewer clinical hours than the PA be that people entering PA programs come from a variety of backgrounds, whereas the NP is a higher level of degree for nurses who already have clinical hours in their nursing programs plus x number of years working as nurses?
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    sour grapes

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