Occupy Wall Street

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by ryoder, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    What does this have to do with anything?

    You didn't answer anything I wrote in my post, you simply changed the subject and went back to the Tu Quoque argument.
     
  2. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    :iagree: History is not as simple as that. Yes, there were atrocities committed by the Europeans, but it's not like the natives were saints either. Hopefully, I never have to deal with hearing anyone anyone say "...but those POOR Aztecs..."
     
  3. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    I guess I missed the part where you asked the question. The bolded type and the actual words of "My question to anyone is this" really through me off ;)

    Should corporations be able to make donations to their candidate of choice? Yes.

    But it does not matter what I think. It's legal now. Look at the last presidential election. Goldman Sachs and the rest of the 1% paid over $40mil to political parties. They hedged their bets too, since 63% of the $40mil went to Obama and the rest to McCain.

    These protesters have no idea what they are doing. They're protesting evil corporations who are supported by political people in Congress. Why were these kids not protesting the government when they bailed the banks out? Why are they not protesting government right now? You'd have to be a complete window licker to think that anything that has been done in the last 4 years has worked on any level. Protest that.

    Their demands are childish and just as importantly too socialist for this country to ever work. They will never get what they are asking for. They come off looking very bad. Kids throwing fits over spending 100K on a minorty women studies degree and then blaming facist corporations becuase they won't hire them is beyond ridiculous. How about getting a degree in something that is actually valued by an employer? If they went to school for the liberal well rounded education then there should have been no expectation of a job when they graduate. Instead they blow throw money living like there is no tomorrow with nary a thought on the future or whether or not their is external value to their degree. Now they are throwing a fit because an investment firm does not hire liberal arts majors?

    This is the first of many lessons these kids will learn and it's also the most important: Life will kick in you in the hoo-hoo. "We" don't owe you shit.
     
  4. jts

    jts New Member

    My discussion of native americans was in relation to the need for property rights, I'm pretty sure. Land ownership, in particular. I'm not married to it, and you are welcome to disagree.

    People always trot out the DMV in these discussions. I don't know if my area is weird, or what, but the local DMV is a model of efficiency. Last time I renewed my license, I waited a grand total of 10 minutes, and saw them process dozens of other requests.

    As for the allusions to 19th century work houses and the Soviets, where are you getting all this from? We have medicare and medicaid already, and so far as I'm aware the government hasn't been horribly abusing the elderly.

    But no, I guess you are right. Government can't be changed, and we may as well just give up now and not bother trying. The whole thing is a waste of time. We have no control over how the country is run, and should leave that up to the corporations that know what's best for us.


    Incompetent government sucks, you are correct. Faced with that situation, however, you don't throw up your hands in despair and cry like a little girl. What you do, is change the culture; make it a culture that values competence over tenure, and throw out everyone that doesn't know what they're doing. Is that easy to do? No! But nothing truly important is ever easy!


    I covered that already. Incentives matter. Create incentives that cause the corporations to pay out more to workers, and less to executives. It's either that, or we can have ourselves a real revolution at the hands of the poor and very angry. I'd rather we used the ballot box, and I wish more people would get on board.


    At no point did I espouse socialism! Just don't let people starve in the streets. It's a safety net. That's all.

    As for an example of a successful socialist country, which I am NOT proposing we become, take a closer look at Cuba. Despite the blockade, despite all the CIA could muster, Cuba is actually doing pretty OK. 90 miles off the coast of Florida...


    I never said profit was evil. Unrestrained greed, however, is evil. I'm proposing restraining it a little more, just like how we restrain it now with various environmental laws and other regulations. Harness the greed, use it for the public benefit. This isn't so hard to understand, is it?

    Tom
     
  5. DLer

    DLer New Member

    The Incas from the 13th century until Pizarro ended the party around 1533, which is roughly the same amount of time between 1776-2011.The Incas organized all of the agriculture, labor and trade. Every person was an employee of the state.
     
  6. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    indaba-dabba-doo session

    :scared:Tom,

    FYI - I’m choosing not participate in this indaba-dabba-doo session any longer. We obviously have different worldviews, and could argue our views ad nausea. If you wish to call it a ‘win’ on your part, then feel free to do so.

    Bob
     
  7. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    Tom I guess our disagreement is that, once you boil down all the particulars, you believe that a government can be made to be reliable and to work for the people. I believe that government has shown us throughout history to be easily corrupted and on the whole not to be trusted. Our forefathers, the revolutionaries shared my opinion of government (at least in part) which is how we ended up with the Bill of Rights. Don't forget, these guys killed people to get away from their rightful government of their day and even when setting up their own government had an inherent distrust of the mechanics of a government. So let me ask you this...why don't we let the individual states opt in or out of universal healthcare? Medicare? Medicade? Social Security?

    As for your statement about the elderly being treated well under Medicare and Medicade...do you know any doctors (of the medical persuasion). They pad their bills so that the treatment of Medicare and Medicade patients gets passed on to everyone else. The cost for their treatment is artificially low thus driving the cost for everyone else's treatment artificially high. A similar thing happened with the government setting price ceilings for apartments in New York City. Maybe you've read that case study in your MBA program (it tends to be a favorite among economists), same thing, different limited resource.
     
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Forget the states! How about allowing individuals opt put of Social Security, et al?
     
  9. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    Even better...but the point I was trying to make with Tom was, if he trusts government so implicitly, why not start at the state level before trying it at the federal level? Why try to swallow the whole elephant in one go?
     
  10. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    They tried this in the UK under Margaret Thatcher; the end result that many people found they had less in their retirement funds than what they had contributed (some ended up with zero) when they retired. And these contributions were through approved financial institutions.

    But there is a additional way to save (using tax deferred income if one wishes); invest the maximum amount every year to 401K, IRA, Roth IRA, or similar retirement plans.

    Incidentally there is much misinformation circulated as fact on the status and future of Social Security - with minor changes it would be a viable system thru the end of this century (and possibly beyond - I have not seen any studies). I'm not against social security even though I pay social security tax at the 15% rate.
     
  11. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    I agree - I renewed my license last year in Southern California - I made an appointment and it took me about 10 minutes, including a short wait and a vision test, to renew my license.
     
  12. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    My last visit...2 hours. For a 5 minute transaction. You guys must be the lucky ones.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Yes, just 90 miles... 90 miles that people risk their lives crossing on rafts so they can escape that gulag you're praising. Sorry, but I've lived in South Florida and I've had too many Cuban friends give me an earful about that regime to let that one go answered.
     
  14. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    I must have missed that. I went to college (on campus) with a Cuban who risked everything and left family behind to get some freedom here in the U.S. He "hopes" to be able to see them again someday, last time I talked to him but the facts that he can get a job, go to college and raise a family here urged his family to encourage his escape. I'm sure he'd be pleased to hear of people like jts who think Cuba is such a great place. I wonder if we could set up an "exchange" plan?
     
  15. jts

    jts New Member

    I knew that would be challenged. We're talking functional economic system that has endured, not total awesomeness. No warranty implied. Contents may settle during shipping. May contain nuts.

    References:

    Gorrell, T. (2005). Cuba: The next unanticipated strategic crisis? Retrieved from: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA433074
     
  16. jts

    jts New Member

    Out of context....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2011
  17. jts

    jts New Member

    Public Service Announcement

    People want to snipe at irrelevancies, and not discuss the actual issues, that's fine. I just have better things to do.

    To clarify: Cuba is an example of a communist economy that has persisted, even in a situation that is challenging for economies in a general sense. Yes, they're commies, and we're not supposed to say anything that could be even mistaken (on purpose?) as a compliment to them. Whatever. Facts are facts. Neither the fact of Cuba's economic survival, nor my mentioning of that fact, means that it's a nice place to live, or that I think it is.

    My views on communism are irrelevant, except to the extent that I have to keep explaining that I'm not suggesting that we turn into commies. This is a common technique of the Right--if you're losing the argument, make the argument into something else and then argue that really loudly in order to drown out any sensible reply. It's kind of sad, really, and unbecoming in an education forum.

    Tom
     
  18. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    The source you cited yourself stated that Cuba had to make "economic changes"......in other words, move away from Communism. If it was so great, why are they now moving away from it?

    In any case, I agree with Steve and the others. Spend 10 minutes talking with a Cuban who risked their lives to escape the oppressive life there, and then get back to us about how well that system has worked.
     
  19. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I kind of feel like saying something else, but I'm not quite sure how to explain the impression that this thread has given me. I guess I'll try. Am I the only one who realizes how comical this all is? Everyone is so assured of their own intelligence and position on the high ground that they are either unwilling or unable to first understand what the other person is even talking about before disagreeing with it. The funny thing is, each of you will agree with me, but will say that it is the other person doing it and not yourself. That is the way political discussions always go. I often feel like I am reading the definitive manual of the argumentative tactics of Abbot and Costello.

    Yes, I understand, I just made everyone mad at me, lost a few fans, and annoyed several people who didn't like me to begin with, but you know that everything I just said is true... and not just because I said it on the internet.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2011
  20. jts

    jts New Member

    :lmao:

    Communism is a red herring. Cuba was just an example. This is not the hole in my argument you are looking for.

    Tom
     

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