Obama's Civilian National Security Force

If you look at their website you will find that Americorps recruits volunteers for Police, fire and state security forces. I do not know how many people actually serve in such a capacity.

I think this so called "Civilian National Security Force" will be the same thing. Just a talking point for the new Administration. Maybe an auxiliary police force and nothing more.

 

Ayers only served on a few committees with Obama and by his own admission was little more than a casual acquaintance.

I did not mean to imply that they were not important to Hitler's mission. But its important to note that they were never really under Hitler's direct control. Furthermore they engaged in class warfare and became an embarrassment to the Nazis which is why Rohm and his group were liquidated. Their place was taken by Himmler's SS which, unlike the SA was totally subservient to the Furher.

 

I was quite wrong, as I previously acknowledged in my post above. The Coast Guard is a military organization.

However, the Coast Guard Auxiliary -- which consists of volunteers who assist the Coast Guard with its duties -- is a civilian organization. The Civil Air Patrol -- which consists of volunteers who assist the Air Force -- is also a civilian organization (hence its name).

Sorry, but in this case, you are wrong. Anyone who is not a member of the Armed Forces is a civilian. State and local policemen are civilians. So are Forest Service rangers or Parks rangers. So are the TSA baggage screeners at the airport. And so, for that matter, are mall security guards.

All of these folks may, under at least some circumstances, carry weapons, wear uniforms, and arrest or detain people. But this does not make them members of the Armed Force, and so they are civilians. If you think otherwise, then I challenge you to find an authoritative definition of "civilian" that supports your position.

The Department of Homeland Security is (with the exception of the Coast Guard) composed of civilian security agencies. These include FEMA, the Transportation Safety Agency, the Secret Service, the Citizenship and Immigration Service, and many others less well known.

The Department of Homeland Security was established by President Bush. It's Bush's "Civilian National Security Force", not Obama's.

 

Without reading the whole thread (I'm rather tired), I actually like the idea. No, I did not vote for Obama, but I believe that if handled well, a "domestic police force" with "military authority" is a necessity in today's world. We are so busy patrolling foreign shores, we have forgotten about our own turf. Sure, the Coast Guard patrols our waters, and Homeland Security spies on both, us and our enemies; but it's not enough. I believe the idea is to create a "real" National Guard. One where people defend their own soil, without fear of being shipped to Iraq or Afghanistan, possibly dropping the old "weekend warrior" adage, and becoming a professional para-military organization, with full support of the government, and the benefits that go along with it. If so, I say "go for it, president Obama, you the man!".

 

While I do not honestly thing this will really take off, I do believe that what Obama is proposing may be the actual intention of the Citizen's Militia which was established by the second amendment. The only basic difference being that the militia was to be an organ of each state. In the days of old, every colony had its own militia and every adult male citizen who could shoulder a musket would serve. Though there exists a National Guard which is the collective name given to every state's militia, the Guard is really more like the army reserve than a state militia. I have yet to see what this so called Civilian National Security Force will be like. Perhaps it will be like England's Home Guard in World War II. Maybe it will never exist at all.

 

You know Cal, I think that I went out of my way to say that I was not looking for an argument and all you seem to want is an argument. I was just expressing my OPINION. I'll bet there's lots of people who agree with me.

Thought experiment: Place a uniformed US Army soldier, a uniformed Police Officer and a man in a business suit on a Police line-up stage. Bring in 100 randomly selected people to view the line-up. Give them one task:
"Who is a civilian?" People will overwhelmingly choose the suit. Very, very few will say that Police Office is a civilian.

I'm not going to go digging for some obscure definition. I'm talking about common public opinion/perception. Do you want to impress me? Then maybe you could come up with a definition, obviously it needs to be from a credible source in such matters, to show that ANYONE who is non-military is a "civilian."

 

That's not what he said. The word "police" is not mentioned, it's a "civilian national security force".

Police departments are not "security forces", and they hate that term like poison. In addition, police departments (the federal alphabet soup agencies are not police departments) are funded by the state as well as local cities/towns within the state. Why would Obama mention funding at the federal level, unless he was creating a new federal force?

 

It doesn't matter how you use the term "civilian", or how I use it. This thread deals with a statement made by Barack Obama. So how did Obama use the term?

Well, Obama is a Federal official (a US Senator) who made the remarks as a candidate for another Federal office (US President). It seems reasonable to suppose that a Federal official running for Federal office is working with the Federal definition.

And as far as the Feds are concerned, you are either in the Armed Forces, or you are a civilian. Here's a real-world example: look at US Army Regulation 500-51, which covers "Support to Civilian Law Enforcement". Now according to your definition, this makes no sense -- there can be no such thing as "Civilian Law Enforcement", because law enforcement personnel are not civilians.

But obviously, the US Army does not see it that way. In fact, the Army says that a "Civilian law enforcement official" is an "Officer or employee of a civilian agency with responsibility for enforcement of the laws within the jurisdiction of that agency". And a "Civilian Agency" is any local, state, or federal government agency -- excepting, of course, DoD agencies, which are military.

So from the Army's perspective -- and it would be the same for any other Federal agency -- "civilian law enforcement" can mean state police, local police, FBI, TSA, Border Patrol, Forest Service, State Parks Rangers, Harbor Patrol, etc. Any law enforcement agency that is not within the Department of Defense is defined as a "civilian agency". That's how Federal personnel normally use the term.

 

Do you suppose that the Department of Homeland Security also feels that way?

Isn't it possible that Obama was simply talking about the existing federal civilian security force -- the Department of Homeland Security -- which has often been criticized (and not just by Democrats) as being underfunded and poorly managed ?

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

Civilian: 2a one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

 

There are definitions of the term "civilian" that include law enforcement personnel. And there are people, like Kizmet, who use that definition.

But Obama is a Federal official. And Federal personnel are divided into the "Uniformed Services" and the "Civil Services", as per US Code, Title 5, Section 2101.

As far as the Feds are concerned, all law enforcement personnel (except Military Police) are in the Civil Service. Obama is a Fed.

 

I'm not arguing with your point. But my entire point is that Barack Obama is not an "average citizen". He is a high ranking official in the Federal government, and when he throws around the term "civilian", then he probably means it in the Federal government sense.

The Federal government does not necessarily use the same terminology as you, or me, or the Merriam-Webster dictionary, or the average Joe in the street. This should not come as a surprise.

 

I assume that when Obama said whatever it was that he said, he was making a political speech to potential voters. Also he was making a future leaning statement about something he might like to make happen in the future. This all means to me that the definition of the word "civilian" could have reasonably meant either definition (non-military or non-military/police/fireman). More importantly, IMHO, since I don't think he mentioned it very often I think that the possibility that it actually will be one of the things that he tries hard to make happen in the future is probably relatively low.

Have fun,
Bill

 

He will have to have this passed by congress. And money is too tight. Whats more there are already enough volunteer organizations of this kind. I predict that no more mention will be made of this so called Civilian National Security Force again once he takes office.

 

My God....with a collection of such educated people, do I really need to explain this??? Obama wants a "Civilian National Security Force" that's "just as well funded" as the military.

Besides that idea doubling the defense budget of the United States, look at this;

1. The overwhelming majority of police services in the United States are provided at the state, county, city, or town level. These agencies are funded solely by their respective governments, with some cross-funding coming from state to county, state to city, county to town, etc.

2. The US Military cannot be used as a police force, by federal law, specifically the Posse Comitatus Act.

3. Federal uniformed police agencies such as the Federal Protective Service, US Park Police, Capitol Police, etc., have extremely limited jurisdiction; usually just on federal property. There are some MOA's which allow federal police jurisdiction on state/local property, but they just detain and have to notify the local agency as soon as possible to actually make the arrest.

4. The federal "alphabet agencies" (FBI, DEA, ATF, USSS, etc.) have jurisdiction throughout the country, but only for violations of federal law. An FBI Agent is powerless to make an arrest for state crimes like drunk driving, domestic assault, or a multitude of other crimes handled by state/local police.

So, we're left with the question; what is going to be the scope of authority of Obama's Civilian National Security Force? According to him, they're going to get the same funding as the US Armed Forces, which is a HELL of a lot of money.

So, what are they going to spend it on?

And, who is going to pay for it?

 

I'm curious, please explain this. What do you really believe regarding this topic? I see two main possibilities. One guess is that associating those Obama statements regarding a Civilian National Security force with Nazi Brownshirts was an exaggeration to simply try to generate more discussion. Another possibility I see is that associating those Obama statements regarding a Civilian National Security force with the Nazi Brownshirts is expressing a concern/belief that Obama has some sinister thoughts of destroying our system of government from within. Or perhaps there's an altogether different explanation?

 

Actually, the first alternative that comes to my mind is that this might be a man who, under pressure, says things that are poorly conceived and thought through even more poorly. Still, that's why he has advisors. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

My question had to do with what people thought about associating those Obama statements regarding a Civilian National Security force with Nazi Brownshirts. Not what Obama meant although I think your explanation for what Obama might have meant is reasonable.

 

There were many mis-sstatements made during this campaign, Bruce, just keep in mind the words of Buffalo Springfield, "paranoia strikes deep, into your heart ot will creep."

Why not give it a rest and see where the dust begins to settle before keeping so worked up.

McCain lost because he had a bimbo on the ticket. You decide who that was.

Now what is that law about mentioning Nazis?


j.