Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Regarding Spanish "propio" degrees, isn't this essentially the same situation that we see in France? Degreeinfo has many threads about French schools that award their own degrees that aren't recognized as "national degrees" by the appropriate Paris ministry. I'm just speculating now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happening in Italy too. (The 'Latin' thing...)
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Not the same in France. There, the entire school is not recognized by the Ministry. E.G. The infamous Robert de Sorbon - headquartered in the owner's farmhouse. He was successfully prosecuted for fraud in 2011 and fined 15,000 Euros. I believe he occasionally posts here, sometimes to threaten us for something we said about his school - sometimes under an alias and posing as "conseiller juridique" (lawyer) - or once in a long while, just to extol its "merits." Hmph! "Conseiller Ridicule!" Schools like this exist through a loophole that probably dates back to Charlemagne, that protects entities that have the merest toe-hold in France. Even after the fraud conviction, RDS could not be closed.

    Propio degrees come into being like this: Ministry inspects University. The officials say "OK, the school is approved & recognized. You may teach the following degrees, (recognized by us, the Government) " -- and they hand over a list. They also say "you may teach other degrees if you want - but if you do - they are without recognition - unless you seek it and we say so." The university is not bound to seek Ministry recognition of such degrees. These legal but non-recognized degrees - from a recognized school - are the propios. No degree from a fraudulent or unapproved school is a propio. Nor is a completely unauthorized degree a propio - e.g. distance degrees offered by a school that has been told by its country that it has no right to award any offshore degrees - or any non-campus ones.

    As far as I know, only Spanish and Latin American schools have this degree-by-degree approval coupled with permission to teach other degrees. I could easily be wrong, though. Correct me if I am. Degrees from some private schools - e.g. quite a few in Panama - are not true propios if the school does not have mainstream recognition (University of Panama oversight). A private university there can do business under a license without academic oversight. If it does so - it's legal, but the school and degrees have less than mainstream recognition. So - no true propios there - just degrees of potentially lower standing, depending on the beholder.

    Enough about propios. Here's a Rutgers site about a Hoodoo Queen. That school good enough for you?
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Wow. That lady is my kind of scholar. One lecture from her is probably worth more than a PhD at any of the Institutes of Ethereal Self-Improvement ...Two more promising (to me) Hoodoo Courses. No, three - Cat Yronwode's bio. is really something. Quite a read. She's one of the few people who went through the sixties - and can remember them!

    Born in Mississippi in the dust of a cotton patch
    Raised up by a rattlesnake and that's a natural fact
    And now you know I'm full grown, got a monkey paw in my hand
    I got a black spider ball in my pocket, I'm a Mississippi Hoo Doo Man

    People say I'm evil, they swear that it's the truth
    Every time I try to move they say the devil's loose
    They all talk about me, they don't understand
    They don't know the power of a Mississippi Hoo Doo Man

    They tried to burn the cornfield just to chase me down
    When the smoke had lifted an empty cornfield's all they found
    Tried so hard to catch me, plan after plan
    They don't know I can't be caught, I'm a Mississippi Hoo Doo Man

    Omar Dykes (Omar & the Howlers) - Mississippi Hoo Doo Man.

    We now return to our regular programming . . . (yawn)

  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I should have said - not ALWAYS the same. There are fraudulent schools without recognition - and legit, authorized schools that don't have full mainstream Recognition - e.g. many of the distance business schools that abound there nowadays - and teach to offshore people often in English. Sometimes these degrees, perfectly legal, simply lack full State recognition or endorsement. If the school is not fully mainstream State-recognized, those degrees can't be considered propios. Sometimes, it appears that such-and-such a school may exceed its authority and teach degrees beyond its scope - e.g. doctoral degrees, when its degree-granting permission only extends to master's.

    So - still no true propios I know of. That requires a school with full mainstream state recognition - working according to established (legal) policies,
    or a bad school n of its degrees, or schools which are just plain exceeding the degree-granting permission the State accorded them. True Propios can only come from fully State-recognized schools. And never exceed the school's state-mandated degree granting parameters e.g above their pay grade..
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Sorry - typo supremo. Garbled. Should read "The French degrees I call non-propios are either from a bad school with no meaningful recognition of its degrees..or schools which are just plain exceeding their mandate... or some reasonable-or-better schools, the degrees of which, while permitted, simply do not have fully mainstream State recognition." Time-out got me.
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member


    Well, you might, but they don't! There's no law against a false degree claim per se. It's all in how it's used. They come here for some sort of pre-approval for what they know is a deception--hoping it's not "too" deceiving. Yeesh.
    heirophant likes this.
  7. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I think there is a difference between lying and disclosing an unaccredited degree. If I earned an unaccredited degree, I am not lying, I'm disclosing an unaccredited or propio degree in a CV.
    According to your logic. if someone earns an ENEB Masters that is unaccredited, he or she might as well lie in a CV as the degree is worthless.
    Again, not everyone needs an accredited degree, I might earn an unaccredited degree in natural medicine but this could be enough to practice in a region where accredited degrees are not required. It is not the same that I just lie in my CV and say "I am doctor of natural medicine from University of Life".

    Most people hiring or looking or a professional advise, are looking for competency, not because the propio degree is unaccredited, it means the person lacks the competency.

    Many propio degrees lack government recognition but are recognized in the Industry because the training is valid.

    I believe there is nothing unethical with getting a propio PhD and disclose it as such in a CV, but it is unethical disclosing a fake credential that I never earned.

    Propio degrees appeal mainly because cost, I don't think the people looking for these options are looking at cheating the system.

    I am sure that even religious PhDs require some effort, if I am just using this credential to conduct wedding ceremonies and give some spiritual advice, maybe one year training is all you need.
  8. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    Seems like this school has moved to anonther Url:

    Unfortunately I´m unable to find out whether this school has any state recognition. However the website speaks about a connection with CALIFORNIA UNIVERSITY CFE which seems to be a complete fake organisation.
  9. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    I´m still looking for a school that is offering a "titulo propio" PhD degree in the Business / Law field.
    Also the school should have at least state recognition for one of their academic degrees to ensure that the school is not completely fake.
    Hopefully someone at the school speaks English however I can find that out by contacting them.
    The only option I´ve yet is San Juan de la Cruz University, thanks to Johann for posting this one. Would be nice to have a alternative to choose before I start enrolling :)

    Since I cannot find any other titulo proprio PhD degrees I´m calling out a finder´s reward of 20 Euros for each school :D :D PM me and I will pay via Paypal :D
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I'll not charge you for any info, here, Johann - I think it's against the forum principles and I don't want to get banned. So, for free - I suggest you might start with the list of private Universities in Costa Rica. Some will likely be available in English - some won't. There are probably 60 or so with 100 campuses total. Look at the websites etc. You may very well find a few degrees of the sort you're looking for by starting here:

    Sicher. Eine gute Entscheidung. :) Don't translate that here. You never know who's reading... could be -um, "those" guys. :eek:
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  11. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    Hmm maybe the finder´s fee was a bad idea, I didn´t think about the rules of this forum. Sorry, I can´t edit it,
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That's OK Johann. I say (as the Mafia guys say) "fuhgeddaboudit." "The moving finger, having writ - moves on, etc." (Omar Khayyam - Persian poet) As Omar said, 300-odd years ago, you can't erase what "the finger" wrote. Not after 10 minutes, anyway. Besides, you've probably had two or three good suggestions on PM by now and your quest is likely over. Cheers! :) When you've made your decision, let us know how it all turns out.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes, but they also claim association with ECE that is a NACES member foreign credential evaluator.

    CFE is really not a University but an evaluation service that is not NACES recognized. The service is not honest as they registered as a school in California so they can have the right to be called University so their certificates look like University diplomas.

    It is a fake University but a real credential evaluation service that has little value.

    It looks like a decent option but it is too new to be considered.

    I also found UTEL but this is not offered in English but they have a PhD in Business,

    The challenge here is that you are looking for a doctorate and it has to be given in English. You might need to look for a Latin English school in Dominica and Belize.

    I found the school below in Dominica that claims to be a candidate for accreditation with AAC (Curacao minister of education approved for caribbean schools)

    As far as Costa Rica is concern, there are many schools there but the challenge here is that they should be willing to accept an English dissertation. San Juan and UNEM seem to be the only known options for English, as you don't like UNEM then San juan becomes the next option.
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Really? The Wiki listing of private Costa Rican universities I referred to earlier has a few schools with English titles - even "the American University of This-or-That." I'd have thought at least they'd be teaching in English - and maybe a couple more of the 60 or so institutions there. I suspect that maybe some of the ones with Spanish names might have developed a taste for greenbacks.
  15. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Maybe but but not many offer online programs and most none offer doctoral degrees.

    Dominica has few accredited online schools, Ballsbridge is not accredited in Dominica but just claims candidacy for Curacao's accreditation.

    This is the reason why Azteca, UCN, San Juan, etc are popular, they seem to be the only ones that accept english.
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Attached is a better, more complete list of Costa Rican private universities, with some descriptions that may help. And forget Ballsbridge (not only because of its somewhat objectionable (to me) name.) It's totally unaccredited in Dominica (or anywhere else I know of) and IIRC was one of the "8 Copthall Group" of half-a-dozen hasty "university" incorporations via the International Business Corporation route that used to cost about $350 plus a lawyer's fee. None of that group ever had meaningful accreditation. "Brain Wells U." and Blue something-or other were two of the others. The incorporation address was 8 Copthall St. in Roseau, Dominica - hence the name we assigned the group. One of them even sold 100% distance MD "degrees" for about $5,000. At least they assured you that you couldn't get a Medical License with those "degrees"!

    Oh yes - here's the better list of Costa Rican private universities. I wouldn't rule out the chance of English instruction, looking at some of the descriptions / names.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    They also claim to be registered and recognized by the governments of... let's see... France, Delaware, California, Cyprus, "and other countries". With claims like that, maybe they should be called Ballsy-bridge.
    Maniac Craniac and Johann like this.
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I think we've seen it in Malaysia too. An old-timer. Threads go back years... IIRC it was once accredited by the infamous International Accreditation Organization, which also "accredited" Pebble Hills U. and a bunch of Axact clones. IAO has accredited over 1,000 "schools" in its time.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  19. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Maybe a business opportunity for you. Try to negotiate with one of the schools, negotiate that they grant the degree and find a company that teaches and supervises the students. You might want to approach an existing unaccredited school that already has a doctorate program and just ask them if they are willing to be validated by the Costa Rican school. Negotiate a finders fee for yourself and then send students like the OP to get the doctorate.

    The above for sure will be more lucrative to yourself than actually taking a program from the Costa Rican school.
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    No, thanks. I think education should be good - and cheap. I don't want to mark up, resell and make it more expensive. Your idea, you're welcome to do it. I'll pass. Thanks anyway.

    I worked in the business world for 30 years. Hated it, although I didn't suck too badly at it and it paid the bills. Not going back. Right now, I'm getting free education. I finished lecture #3 today in Python Programming - from MIT - free download, 13 lectures. Dr. Ana Bell is a superb instructor. I have free lectures / courses from Harvard, Yale, British and French universities - everything I want.

    A year or two ago, I completed the Digital Photography series from Harvard. Dr. Dan Armendariz is an inspiring teacher. Yale was particularly great for modern poetry and for music. I remember the professor expounding on different scales - Nora Jones singing in a 5-note American blues scale - and her father, Ravi Shankar, playing sitar in an Indian 6-note raga scale. That professor really knew where to find good examples. He had excellent piano chops himself, as well. As long as I don't require the diploma (and I don't) I'm good. With my laptop, I can "go" to the best schools - free -forever. It doesn't get any better than MIT, Harvard, Yale etc..

    Years ago, I never imagined this would be possible. It's wonderful. Simply wonderful. My kind of school. Doctorate be damned. Isn't it always the way? I can finally afford one - and I don't want it...
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020

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