Just a tad pissed off

Thats funny, yes American superiority in everything is due to the ability to obtain an undergraduate degree in 4 weeks.

 

Uh, did I say somewhere that it was evidence... if I did, I humbly stand corrected.

 

If you want to include the unaccredited US schools in the list then I would argue that we should include the UK degree mills in the list. I can't imagine that you would really argue that the UK degree mills are any better than the US degree mills!

 

I am not at all knowledgable about mills (no interest) but I would think that I guy with a mail box and a printer is the same anywhere but that wasn't my assertion and it was not the topic of discussion last night.

 

Originally posted by Lewchuk:
Thats funny, yes American superiority in everything is due to the ability to obtain an undergraduate degree in 4 weeks.

Of course, only an idiot (or someone posing as one) would believe a bachelor's degree can be "earned" in 4 weeks. The knowledge necessary to get one can be demonstrated in that period of time, but it is safe to say that such knowledge is acquired over a considerably longer period.

To use the same stupid logic, a Heriot-Watt MBA can be "earned" in one day. All one must do is pass the exams.

Chumming the water with red herrings doesn't improve one's argument. It hardly elevates one above the ones being baited.

Rich Douglas

 

No "holier-than-thou" intended, Gary, only your observation above. Sarcasm, satire, pun, criticism, disagreement, etc., can all be achieved using civil terms. Even the moderators should hold to a high level of dialogue, refraining from course language--which is merely the mark of a civilized society.

Russell

 

Actually Gary, it's not harrassment at all, just trying to pin someone down who continually spouts a blatant bias towards US schools, which may well turn off some lurkers who would benefit from a US school.

There is no pissing contest on my part. Lewchuk said he had plenty of evidence that the US has the majority of the world's worst schools. I'm asking him to post it, I've asked numerous times. He chooses to ignore me or change the subject. What does that tell you?

As I see it, I'm performing a service by trying to clarify this issue. It's been a long time coming, IMO.

Bruce

 

The reason I'm not trying to engage in debate is because at this point, there is no topic to debate. I'm simply asking Lewchuk to post this mystery evidence he says that he has, that's it. What are we supposed to debate about concerning that? Either he will or he won't, and if he won't, well, I think that should tell everyone something.

*IF* he did post this evidence, *then* there might be something to debate. I'd be more than happy to debate at that point, because then there would at least be a topic. At this point, it's a cycle of me asking, him dodging.

The reason I care is because I got pretty fed up with him attacking and ridiculing US schools with no supporting evidence. I asked him this time to supply some, and he said there was plenty. I decided once and for all to settle it, so I'm going to press for an answer. Does he have to post this evidence? Of course not. But rest assured if he doesn't, I'll be the first to remind everyone the next time he takes a swipe at US schools.

Bruce

 

I want to say that I agree with Bruce.

The issues raised in this thread are important ones. Ultimately it boils down to whether a good percentage of English language higher education should be dismissed as inferior merely because of its nation of origin.

Given the magnitude of that assertion, and its tremendous effect on people's choice of DL programs if believed, it makes all the sense in the world to ask for the evidence that supports it.

When someone makes a rather incredible assertion, asking them to give you some reason why you should join them in believing it is not harassing them.

 

well, apparently that knowledge can be "earned" by any adult of average intelligence without "extra-curricular activities" if you will... you can "earn" the degree by simply "being"... the true democratic education... a very interesting concept but quite different than HW.

Of course, only an idiot (or someone posing as one) would believe a bachelor's degree can be "earned" in 4 weeks. The knowledge necessary to get one can be demonstrated in that period of time, but it is safe to say that such knowledge is acquired over a considerably longer period.

To use the same stupid logic, a Heriot-Watt MBA can be "earned" in one day. All one must do is pass the exams.

 

Quite the contrary, I merely dispel the myth that RA guarantees a level of academic rigor that is taken for granted at the Universities of some other countries.

This should not necessarily turn someone off from a US school but it does suggest that in the US a higher degree of caution (i.e. buyer beware) is warranted.

You remind me of a movie I saw once:
Bruce: "I want the evidence"
Ken: "The evidence, you can't handle the evidence".

 

OK Bruce, you are confused again... you debate positions not evidence.

 

I believe that I can handle the evidence.

What about my situation that was described earlier? Would you agree that a California community college would be considered lower tier and that UC Berkeley would be considered upper tier? If you would agree with that then why does my personal experience appear not fit into this theory?

 

It really is not that incredible of an assertion but the nation of origin in itself is irrelevant (I am Captain of Team global ed)... however the US has a unique system which has some advantages and some disadvantages over other systems... ignoring these differences and pretending "everyones the same" really doesn't do anyone a favor.

 

Kudos for CCC. I have had direct experience with several schools (4 as instructor/potential instructor and 1 as student). I was very surprised at the low academic standards at 3/4 and the one I "studied" with. Now 3/4 were smallish non-profit... 1/4 was large public.

If you really want to begin to understand this you need to understand differences in values and quality control between the US and UK.

 

I will get you started... the items in brackets are things which should be noted.

Accreditation in the U.S.
The United States has no Federal Ministry of Education or other
centralized authority exercising single national control over
postsecondary educational institutions in this country (very different than the UK, has both advantages and disadvantages). The States
assume varying degrees of control over education, but, in general,
institutions of higher education are permitted to operate with
considerable independence and autonomy. As a consequence, American
educational institutions can vary widely in the character and quality (note: VARY WIDELY IN THE CHARACTER AND QUALITY) of
their programs.
In order to insure a basic level of quality, (note: A BASIC LEVEL OF QUALITY) the practice of
accreditation arose in the United States as a means of conducting
non-governmental, peer evaluation of educational institutions and
programs. Private educational associations of regional or national scope
have adopted criteria reflecting the qualities of a sound educational
program and have developed procedures for evaluating institutions or
programs to determine whether or not they are operating at basic levels
of quality (again, BASIC LEVELS OF QUALITY).

 

I am feeling gracious, so here is some more info regarding accreditation:

In the United States, institutions are neither ranked officially nor compared with one another. In this country, the quality of more than thirty-five hundred institutions of higher learning is assured through their accreditation by six private regional associations. Each institution is judged against its own aspirations, as expressed in a statement of mission and goals.

(so a major objective of US accreditation is not "what" they deliver but "how"... we will accredit McDonald's University because they do a very good job of delivering their mission of teaching people how to create Big Macs).

 

Nice try Ken. I think it is more a case of you not having any, but I will not be swayed.

You stated that you have "plenty" of evidence that the US has the majority of the world's worst schools. In spite of me and other people asking you over and over and over and over again, you refuse to produce it. Either you don't have it, you were expressing an opinion with no supporting evidence, or you were just full of crap. Which is it?

Bruce

 

Egads, Lewchuck, have ye no shame whatsoever? Although far from your intent, you have certainly succeeded in getting me started. You are correct; the items in brackets are, indeed, the things to be noted as they are the only things that are merely echoed and not completely plagiarized.

From http://www.barrington.edu/ (click on the link for Accreditations and Licensure):

“The United States has no Federal ministry of education or other centralized authority exercising single national control over postsecondary educational institutions in this country. The States assume varying degrees of control over education, but, in general, institutions of higher education are permitted to operate with considerable independence and autonomy. As a consequence, American educational institutions can vary widely in the character and quality of their programs.

In order to insure a basic level of quality, the practice of accreditation arose in the United States as a means of conducting non-governmental, peer evaluation of educational institutions and programs. Private educational associations of regional or national scope have adopted criteria reflecting the qualities of a sound educational program and have developed procedures for evaluating institutions or programs to determine whether or not they are operating at basic levels of quality.”

Once again you are simply copying and pasting without attribution. Yet, considering your source this time, it is quite understandable: despicable and shameful, but understandable.

Gus Sainz

 

This is becoming tiresome. You are far from gracious; you are intellectually dishonest.

You have once again, without attribution, posted as original thought the work of others. From The American System of Quality Control:
Regional Accreditation by Dr. Amy K. Lezberg, Associate Director of the
Commission on Institutions of Higher Education
New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Bedford, Massachusetts which can be accessed at: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US5/REF/usaccred.html

“In the United States, institutions are neither ranked officially nor compared with one another. In this country, the quality of more than thirty-five hundred institutions of higher learning is assured through their accreditation by six private regional associations. Each institution is judged against its own aspirations, as expressed in a statement of its mission and goals.”

And you ignobly cut the quote to suit your purposes, conveniently omitting the two sentences that followed which expressed the author’s true viewpoint:

” This uniquely American activity encourages institutional quality through a process of self-evaluation and peer review. Regional accreditation is institutional rather than programmatic or individual and has the dual purposes of both providing quality assurance for institutions of higher education and encouraging institutions to work toward improving their quality and effectiveness.”

I have no idea of what education system you are a product of, but you, sir, are a fraud.

Gus Sainz