John Bear seeks advice on military credentials, for ABC

Let me get this straight... the two people Bruce whistled on held degrees from ... a university that was formerly permitted to grant degrees under law, but wasn't accredited?

How about national television showing up at my door for my holding my unaccredited degrees? I will be sure to stand there with my two novels and flog the heck out of them while they ask me their stupid questions. They can also read my 960+ page professional portfolio, or the 1,300 pages I submitted for my degrees. If they pay me as much as I paid for my degrees (that is zero cents) ... where will I put all that money?

I don't wish to hold up anyone who lies, defrauds, cheats, or steals and ask for the mercy of mankind... nor am I particularly teary eyed that someone offering psychological counseling and advice of a deeply psycho-personal nature who possibly held non-sufficient degrees was "found out" and run out of Tombstone ... but I am against people showing up unannounced to make this the nation's business.

If they put their degrees up for public scrutiny, then perhaps they were ... urk and God forbid ... unashamed. Not everyone who holds an unaccredited degree is ashamed of that degree. You know, if I pointed at you (you in the general sense) and made fun of your parents' education LONG ENOUGH ... you might become ashamed, too. If I dug up your (general sense) laundry, the things you've said to your spouse and children in anger -- you'd turn green. (Unless you've been living the life of a saint.)

Yes, there are other options that make more sense for 99.99% of people. Sometimes, those options don't make sense (for whatever reason) for everyone.

It bothers me when people clump all the various sorts of deceit (fake degrees, bogus teaching certificates of people with the same name, people who lie about their letters outright) in with those who simply chose to hoe their own row.

Unannounced national exposure is purely and simply flatulent.


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Quinn

 

No, the school in question was Columbia State University, described in BG as the most notorious diploma mill ever. The founder/owner, Ron Pellar, was a Federal fugitive living in Mexico until he was captured last year. He's currently being held on charges from yet another fake school scam while the Feds build their case against Columbia State.

When this subject was originally raised, I and several others said that we should stick to outright scams and avoid schools that are merely questionable or simply unaccredited, no matter how we personally felt about them.


Bruce

 

Thanks for the clarification, Bruce.

Although I stand on the matter of national exposure, I appreciate the background on that particular detail. There are just so many "Columbia" and "Californiyay" ... one loses track.



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Quinn

 

Why should we do their (ABC's) legwork? Let the schmoos who get megabucks to do this sort of thing earn their money. If it took Bruce 5 minutes to find two fake Columbia State degrees, then let Geraldo surf the net -- after he finishes with Afghanistan.

BTW, why pick on the military? Who is next, church organists with fake music degrees?

Personally, I prefer to "Let sleeping dogs lie."

Bill Hurd

 

Being an Admin/Personnel Officer on active duty in the U.S. Navy I can say that Commanding Officer Biographies are accessable to the public. Usually the commands website has a bio on the CO which detailed where he/she received their degrees. If not you can write to a command to obtain the CO's bio. Short of that the only other place now-a-days (officer service records went away) is on the Officer Data Card which is a tool used by the Chief of Naval Personnel is detailing officers (lists what duties they held and schools attended). This information is of Official Use Only (falls under the Privacy Act) and not made available to the public.

Take Care!
Tom

 

Of course, these represent a fraction of the officer corps. The Air Force publishes biographies on every general, too. In my entire career, I never saw one questionable degree listed among the hundreds (thousands?) I read.

Rich Douglas

 

The media doesn't care--as long as they get their story!

 

"... fake degrees and credentials ... degrees from bad and fake schools..."

I hope GMA and other media folks make the distinction between "fake" degrees and credentials and those that are simply acquired from non-traditional institutions in non-traditional ways. I hope they realize, too, that not all unaccredited programs fall into the "fake" category. The media has been guilty of over-simplication in the past.

Will the media come after John Bear because he once got ordained by the American Fellowship Church (a legitmate ... that is legal ... mail-order ordination ministry that
is called "fake" by some)? I'm not picking on John, who is open about doing the ordination so he could perform a marriage for a friend. There is nothing wrong with that in my view, but I can see some media type making a phoney issue of that.


Tom Rogers (who has some non-traditional credentials of his own)

 

One of my many "additional duties" while in the Air Force and at my last assignment was as a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) monitor. I had to route requests to the appropriate weapon system office, ensure that the requester received a reply within 10 days, etc. While I'm certainly no expert on it, and it's been a while, I'd be very surprised if anyone's personal resume is accessible through FOIA. And, besides, I would hope that that sort of thing would also be protected under the Privacy Act of 1974.

 

Biographies, however, are a different matter and should be easy to obtain.

 

In the Air Force, the Freedom of Information Act is covered under a publication called
AFI 37-131 (that's Air Force Instruction 37-131). Like most Air Force pubs, they're available on the web. AFI 37-131 can be found at
www.afrc.af.mil/afrcepl/PUBS/AFRC/AF/37/37013100/37013100.pdf

and is an Adobe Acrobat file, so you'll need that program on your computer to the file, of course. By the way, I found this by searching by "AFI 37-131."

The Privacy Act (PA) is covered under AFI 37-132, and I'm sure it can be found, too, by the same type of search. Anyway, these only show the Air Force policies, but the policies you'll uncover will likely be the same as in the other branches since FOIA and PA are programs that all government agencies are required to comply with.

The simplest thing to do, really, is to just go ahead and request the information you want under the FOIA and see what they say. The worst they CAN say is NO, and if they do, ask them why.

 

OK, now we're getting to the heart of it. Your response infers my *exact* point. If it were someone you cared about, you would attempt to correct the problem different.

Instead of plastering their faces on television, you'd first talk to them. You'd give them an opporunity to solve the situation themselves -- first.

My entire point is that *anyone* deserves an opportunity to be made aware -- well before significant public disgrace. If they opt otherwise, then let "life" take over.

I am talking about the "how", not the "what".

This board is better than this. I'd expect such in the old AED days. Not here.

Barry Foster

 

Coincidentally, the Chronicle has an article today that mentions the push amongst military officers to obtain graduate degrees.
http://chronicle.com/free/2002/01/2002011601u.htm

 

This really doesn't apply to the Air Force. Line officers almost never get promoted to major without a graduate degree.

When I was assigned to ROTC faculty duty, a master's was required (by the Air Force). But almost none of my Army and Navy counterparts had one. (We were, for the most part, captains and majors--or the Naval equivalents.) In fact, it was expected they would take the time to do one during their ROTC tour.

Interestingly, San Diego State made those of us with master's degrees assistant professors. Those officers with just a bachelor's degree were made lecturers, then upgraded when they completed their master's degrees.

Rich Douglas

 

But ... we are currently at war with a foreign enemy.

The last thing that the military leadership should have to worry about now is coming under attack by the domestic media. They should not have to worry about being made to look bad in front of the men that they are attempting to lead into harm's way.

 

What is on your record and what helps your career are two different things.

The military wants *everything* on your record. Accredited or not. What parts of your record are used for promotion vs. the total of what is on your record are two different things.

 

Exactly. You hand them a canned resignation letter, minus a signature, pat them on the back, and say, "Do the right thing, Jim. (Or Bill, or John....)" while ceremoniously handing them a pen.




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Quinn

 

There is, IMHO, a distinct difference between blowing the whistle on someone, i.e. notifying the proper authorities as to a persons fraudulent degree, and ambushing them on national television. The first action is designed to hold someone accountable by exposing what may be a potentially dangerous or at least an unethical situation. The second action is designed solely to publicly humiliate the person for the purpose of TV ratings (which means selling dishwashing liquid or whatever else is being advertised that day). If your interest is simply exposing the unethical person then the TV cameras are unnecessary.
Jack

 

I remember an autobiography writer who posted on a writer's forum that she had angered a whole array of her family and friends by exposing all of the skeleton's and idiocy of the family and social dynamics to which she'd been subjected by that circle.

She insisted that it was her right, duty, obligation to tell it as it was, to express herself, no matter the consequences.

My suggestion to her was to sit down and write a long letter to herself, knowing as she did all of her own flaws and sins. The idea was for her to flame herself in the worst possible way ... to hold nothing back. I then suggested she should put the document aside for some period of time -- thirty days. After that period, she was to read the document as if someone else had exposed all of those flaws and sins. Finally, she was to ask herself if she wanted to see that published in a national magazine, with her name on it.

Human beings make mistakes. I know I sure have, although I do not count my unaccredited degrees in the mistake category. God forbid that some who made mistakes then have the audacity to go on to become successful. If they achieved promotion, et cetera, based upon falsified credentials, then they must answer to their maker, their superiors, their consciences, the people they wronged -- but why the nation? Moreover, if they are in a position where they should answer to the nation ... why without warning?

An englightening movie to watch is Hero, with Dustin Hoffman. Watch it once, watch it often.

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Quinn

 

My interest is twofold:

1) Remove the person with the fake credentials from their position. Can that be done without media attention? Sure.

2) Send a very clear message that buying a fake degree is something that's not worth the risk. Can that be done without media attention? No way.

I graduated from a military high school that has a very strict Honor Code. Anyone convicted of lying, cheating, or stealing was literally & very publically drummed out of the Corps of Cadets in a very humiliating ceremony. The example was clear. As a result, it was a very rare event, and only happened twice in my four years there. In an ironic twist to this thread, the military more than anyone knows that the threat of humiliation is a great motivator.


Bruce