Is a PSYD from CSU worthwhile if not leading to licensing?

Projection? You don't possess ANY clinical mental health certifications or licenses so if you feel bored grab hold of an old "Mad" magazine and entertain yourself because you have nothing to offer but your obvious expressions of jealousy.

 

Well, Jan, you go ahead and get a clinical degree from a program that people KNOW doesn't require a clinical residency and watch just how accurate my statements are. Remember, you will have to work with the Psych community at some point and you will be exposed for taking that route. You won't be taken seriously by anyone who knows the truth about how you obtained the degree, and if you think your peers won't check, guess again.

As Sanantone correctly pointed out, if one is not going to do clinicals then get a non-clinical degree instead. The PsyD is a clinical degree, that is a fact, and if you obtain it without doing clinicals you are playing yourself in addition to misrepresenting your training. And just the fact that school makes an indispensable part of a clinical degree optional is still enough to get you stiff-armed from other psychologists and the psych community in general when they find that out. Neither I or any other sane person would want to work with or be worked on by ANY Doctor of any specialty/discipline who is practicing in a clinical setting who never did clinical training. The very idea is an absolute joke no matter how much you refuse to hear that reality.

 

Yeah . . . take that, Jan. What he said . . .

 

Response: There is a very simple solution that does not require such intense disagreement on your part. Just don't attend this school!

However, there are many others, for varied reasons, who may find this doctoral degree program meeting their needs.

So the best of luck to you!

 

Maxwell_Smart, an excerpt from Wikipedia regarding the multifaceted nature of the PsyD supports my statements as follows:

"Earning the degree was originally completed through one of two established training models for Clinical Psychology. However, Psy.D programs are no longer limited to Clinical Psychology as several universities and professional schools have begun to award professional doctorates in Business Psychology, Organizational Development, Forensic Psychology, Counseling Psychology and School Psychology."

Btw, Wikipedia is obviously not uptodate because there are no "longer several universities and professional schools" offering such offshoots of the PsyD, but a fairly large number of RA schools currently offering these Psy.D subspecialization areas of study. Thus, CSU is not an anomaly in that regard but following a trend which is generally recognized and accepted by each of the six regional accreditation agencies.

 

If you go to Student Doctor Network (SDN) they discuss Calsouthern periodically. Seems to be general disdain for it among the Clinical Psychologists that post. Some strong feelings. It is online, not APA and it is a PsyD.

There is a pecking order with APA PhDs from non profits at the top. Some of the other MacUniversities that spread around (even with APA).....lower. CalSouthern...lower (est).

 

RESPONSE: Please provide the link so that we may all review these statements and be allowed to comment. Much appreciated.

 

Sure. Here is one thread (there are others). The guy (Psychologist) with the picture of someone with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth is a bit Levicoffian in his approach to commentary. So be forwarned before you wade in trying to set him straight.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/unaccredited-calsouthern-psyd.1234106/#post-18426249

 

RESPONSIBLE RESPONSIVE RESPONSE:
Man, you're getting lazy, Jan. I punched a search in and in less than 10 seconds had a list of multiple threads on the Student Doctor Network forum about Cal Southern. I know you must be tired after a day of defending your ill-informed positions, but are you telling us that you lack the basic research skills to pull this kind of information up on your own? Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

And Garp is right - I'd say that the SDN folks have a realistic view of how Cal Southern is mickey mouse.

 

Thanks Garp.

Nothing stated in the thread you provided, as well as others I reviewed, actually negate the value of CSU'S Psy.D program for individuals who cannot afford over $100,000 for a Psychology doctorate, do not require an APA PsyD, do not have the time to attend a brick and mortar PsyD program, are merely seeking a PsyD for title or for promotional opportunities, a higher learning experience or for personal attainment. The bottom line is that schools such as CSU may serve the varied objectives and needs of certain individuals but obviously not others.

Btw, there is also the question of bias on the part of a number of posters on this network for various reasons that cannot be discounted when reviewing their negative comments about CSU.

 

Let's be realistic here. The people who are earning a non-licensure qualifying PsyD are not people who want a license and are willing to take a non-traditional route. They aren't licensed mental health practitioners who want to mislead customers into thinking they have a different license. They are people who really need an ego boost and, I'd wager, some people who want to hang up a shingle, toss "Rev." in front of their name and take advantage of incredibly lax pastoral counseling exceptions in many states. That PsyD just lends them a bit of gravitas in their marketing materials.

Even if the SDN people were completely indifferent to CSU, it is still not a program that lives up to its own name. A clinical degree title without a clinical component. Only slightly better, IMO, than the non-psych PsyD at Walden I referenced earlier.

We know who is going after this sort of thing. It isn't the mythical LMHC with a chip on his/her shoulder for not being a psychologist. It isn't the dedicated student who will overcome all odds to achieve their goal despite this being their "only" option. We know exactly who it is. It's the retiree who wants the title. It's the guru who wants legitimacy for his yoga retreat. It's the hack who can't get into a real program. It's the person who fell into some counseling role via substance abuse counseling or something similar and who now feels they have outgrown their modest beginnings and need some letters after their name to feel like they are big kid mental health providers. It's the life coach who slips between the cracks of licensing restrictions and feels that this degree will allow them to be more marketable still while remaining a step ahead of regulators.

 

Neuhaus:Let's be realistic here. The people who are earning a non-licensure qualifying PsyD are not people who want a license and are willing to take a non-traditional route. They aren't licensed mental health practitioners who want to mislead customers into thinking they have a different license. They are people who really need an ego boost and, I'd wager, some people who want to hang up a shingle, toss "Rev." in front of their name and take advantage of incredibly lax pastoral counseling exceptions in many states. That PsyD just lends them a bit of gravitas in their marketing materials.

RESPONSE: "Realistic"? You mean your perception of reality. Nothing wrong with that, but your claims and "wager(s)" are based on your reality, not facts! Making gross negative generalities regarding others' motives for seeking this doctorate without knowing the facts goes under the heading of emotional reactions rather than substantive based evidence, and raises questions as to your motives in devaluing others who may find this degree program useful for whatever reasons, as well as meeting their needs, although obviously not yours.

Neuhaus: "Even if the SDN people were completely indifferent to CSU, it is still not a program that lives up to its own name. A clinical degree title without a clinical component. Only slightly better, IMO, than the non-psych PsyD at Walden I referenced earlier."

RESPONSE: "SDN People" are primarily brick and mortar Doctoral level Psychology Students and practicing Psychologists who I respect for their accomplishments. However, their comments do not diminish the myriad reasons for individuals seeking distance online doctorates in Psychology that meet their needs.

Neuhaus: We know who is going after this sort of thing. It isn't the mythical LMHC with a chip on his/her shoulder for not being a psychologist. It isn't the dedicated student who will overcome all odds to achieve their goal despite this being their "only" option. We know exactly who it is. It's the retiree who wants the title. It's the guru who wants legitimacy for his yoga retreat. It's the hack who can't get into a real program. It's the person who fell into some counseling role via substance abuse counseling or something similar and who now feels they have outgrown their modest beginnings and need some letters after their name to feel like they are big kid mental health providers. It's the life coach who slips between the cracks of licensing restrictions and feels that this degree will allow them to be more marketable still while remaining a step ahead of regulators."

RESPONSE: "WE KNOW"? No Neuhaus, YOU think, believe that we know! Please provide us with substantive data, facts, that support your very denigrating comments about others' motives seeking "this sort of thing". Reason being I am open to changing my perspective if you can show us, other than "We know", facts that confirm your demeaning gross generalizations. Looking forward to reviewing your findings. Thanks

 

In this era of school bankruptcies, program closures and general belt-tightening the ultimate test is whether the school is able to consistently enroll a sufficient number of students to remain in operation and in the good graces of their accreditors. If an accredited school is attracting and graduating enough students then one can only assume the degrees are sufficiently useful to a segment of the population. I'm really not sure why there is a push to knock this program. Everything I know about it indicates that it does exactly what it is designed (and advertises) to do.

 

RESPONSE: Kizmet, your points are right on target.

In fact, contrary to the posts stating otherwise, CSU offers practicums and internships to students whose state licensing boards approve these for licensing as a Psychologist. So there is a clinical component to this degree program where applicable. However, it also offers a doctorate in Psychology for students who reside in states whose boards do not accept their practicums and internships for such licensing. Although Neuhaus has every right to voice his animus towards this school and to conjure up all sorts of "rationales" for students selecting CSU, the fact is that in order to gain admission into their PsyD program one needs to have a masters degree, the majority of whom are licensed in Mental Health, Professional Counseling and some with MSWs. Contrary to Neuhaus's depiction of the composition of students applying for CSU's PsyD, one cannot gain admission into this program with a Bachelors degree but must have completed a masters degree. So this omits Neuhaus's Gurus, Substance abuse Counselors without a masters degree, or life coaches and hacks. Also omitted from Neuhaus's negative posturing regarding this doctoral program is the fact that it takes an enormous amount of time and discipline, anywhere from two to four years and beyond to complete this doctoral program, which is no small task!

Although CSU offers up to thirty doctoral level transfer credits that match their doctoral level courses, if one ONLY has a masters degree, and are even licensed mental health practitioners, they are required to take the entire program consisting of 66 credits, taking approximately four years to complete. Further proof of the substantive quality of this school is that during the initial regional accreditation review process by WASC, the high level of substance and standards of the entire infrastructure of this school and construct of the courses offered was demonstrated by the fact that they went straight from the initial review process to full regional accreditation in record time without requiring candidacy status!

The bottom line is that each individual has choices regarding whether to enter a brick and mortar PsyD program or an online doctoral program in Psychology based on their goals, personal circumstances, needs and preferences. If licensing at the doctoral level is pivotal to their choice than each prospective student needs to engage in due diligence and carefully determine whether an online doctorate such as the one offered by CSU, or any other online psychology doctoral program, would be acceptable by their respective state board for licensing. However, as has been highlighted throughout this thread, there are numerous master level licensed practitioners who are not seeking licensure as a Psychologist and an online regionally accredited PsyD may meet their needs and objectives.

 

Hahahaha! While I appreciate the passive-aggressive well-wishing, I'm not the one in need of luck here, Jan. Reserve that for the person trying to get a clinical degree without doing clinicals. I actually have a working conscience and a sense of ethical responsibility.

Buh-Bye.

 

I guess I am a bit puzzled with this. Are you actually saying that someone who earns a PsyD from CSU is doing something bad/wrong (that might bother someone's conscience) and that they are actually violating some sort of professional ethics? Is that really your position?

 

RESPONSE: Speaking of your "sense of ethical responsibility", calling my "well-wishing" passive -aggressive, when it was meant sincerely, along with your hyper-negative statements regarding a legitimate school and its PsyD program, raises questions as to the accuracy of your perceptions and evaluative statements.

 

I'm saying that any school that offers a clinical degree and does not mandate clinical practice and allows one to earn the degree without that practice is acting unethically. I'm saying that any adult that decides to take said program with the full knowledge of that is acting unethically. I'm saying that if this same situation were applied to any other health profession in which a degree is meant for clinical practice, it would be unethical.

The general position that "because it's being offered and people are using it, that makes it right to do" is shown absurd by concepts like "since crack is being offered and people are using it, that makes it right to do."

In this case, it may be legal, it may be accepted by a specific audience, but that doesn't make it ethical. It drags us down a dangerous road. MD's who never took clinical training? Nurses who never took clinical training? How many unsuspecting people will be hurt by that irresponsibility? For some reason, people seem to think the magnitude of this sort of thing isn't as great because it's Psychology, but they're wrong. A poorly trained PsyD can do lots of damage to a person just like any other poorly trained health professional can.

To illustrate the position CSU is taking, I recall a conversation I had with an administrator there where I mentioned some issues with the program and he replied "Well, you get to legally call yourself Doctor." After shaking my head at that comment for a good 5 seconds I replied "Assuming I didn't already have a Doctorate, the purpose of me becoming a Doctor wouldn't be for the ego boost of calling myself "Doctor", it would be for the purpose of helping people." That brought on a long moment of silence and I said goodbye.

Even legitimate schools make errors in judgement.