Is a PSYD from CSU worthwhile if not leading to licensing?

The piece about the Professors of Psychology at Whatever University is a point I have tried (badly) to address in the past. I think you've done it well.

 

RESPONSE: Primarily, if you opine that the PsyD program at CSU does not meet your expectations or goals that is fine. However, to throw the "baby out with the bathwater," by making negative gross generalizations as to this degree being "worthless" and attributing negative reasons for for others seeking this doctorate, concluding that it is not ethical, is obviously your right to state but is grossly inaccurate and misrepresenting the facts.

 

RESPONSE: As an addendum to your excellent post, it is always in the best interests of anyone seeking a doctorate at a school such as CSU to initially check with their respective state board to determine if there are any pitfalls associated with obtaining such a doctorate and whether it may result in any violations.

Another issue that is important to consider is that certain mental health disciplines such as Mental Health Counseling, do NOT have clinically oriented doctoral options that are CACREP-accredited due to the only doctorate option currently available is a research/academic oriented Ph.D doctorate specialization is Education and Supervision. This is why a PsyD appeals to individuals who are licensed as Mental Health Counselors who are seeking a clinically oriented doctorate who may find CSU's PsyD program very appealing.

Lastly, as noted in previous posts, IF the clinician makes it clear to prospective clients, verbally, and especially in a written Informed Consent, that they are not practicing psychology, are not licensed as psychologists, are licensed in their specific Mental Health Specialization and are practicing within the scope of expertise relating to their discipline of practice, they are taking proactive measures to preempt any charges or complaints of violations relating to misrepresentation of title, or providing mental health services beyond their scope of expertise.

 

There are CACREP-accredited Ed.D programs. I also came across a blog by someone who said that she has an APA-accredited Ed.D.

These days, most Ed.D and PsyD programs require a dissertation, so there really isn't much of a difference between those programs and a PhD. Also, if a program does not require a practicum and internship, then it's really not all that clinically-oriented.

Social workers can earn a DSW, and it is usually faster than earning a PsyD.

 

RESPONSE: In regard, to the dissertation requirements for the Ph.D, and frequently for the Ed.D, there are distinct differences with the Psy.D . The Ph.D, (and generally the Ed.D) requires substantial research culminating in a substantive contribution to the field of Psychology while the Psy.D generally requires a doctoral project consisting for example of a critical review and analysis of the literature, an action oriented community project or a theoretical or case study.

Although the blogger may have attained an APA-accredited Ed.D, such accreditations are far and few between and are from a different time period. The primary APA accreditation is for the Ph.D and Psy. D.

Yes, a DSW is generally a "faster" degree to earn than the Psy.D but Professional Counselors at the Masters level or Marriage and Family Counselors are not eligible for admission into DSW programs. One needs an MSW for admission.

 

After making my morning post I was walking downtown today and passed an office. The name on the door indicated that the occupant has an Ed.D. and is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor. I got a bit of a chuckle given this ongoing discussion.

As sanantone notes, there are CACREP accredited doctorates. I believe Liberty and Regent both have programs like that. It is quite possible to earn a PhD in your chosen field as a mental health counselor. I have not seen, though I haven't looked hard, a PhD in Marriage and Family Therapy that is accredited by the accreditor for MFT programs.

I want to look at the fairness to the non-psychologists earning these degrees. Why is there a PsyD in, say, Mental Health Counseling? Or in Marriage and Family Therapy? Those are fields governed by other licensing bodies. Why, for example, does Walden offer a PsyD in Behavorial Health Leadership? In looking at the curriculum, the general program could very well read from an MPA program rather than a PsyD program.

The fact that you can earn an RA PsyD without studying psychology is the real issue here. And, while we're on the subject of ethics, how would we feel about a licensed psychologist with only a masters (there are still a few floating out there) earning this particular PsyD? THAT would be misleading, IMO. But slightly less misleading than offering what is clearly a research degree in healthcare leadership and making it appear to be a clinical degree.

Consumers are not shopping for mental health practitioners based on post-nominals. It doesn't happen. It's not a thing. Mental health practitioners might well be shopping for educational programs like that, however. I'd argue it isn't unethical to want a PsyD even if not a psychologist. But it is unethical to water down the PsyD so that it is available to almost anyone without studying psychology at that level and doing the clinical portion we would expect to see in a typical PsyD program.

 

RESPONSE: However, IF an individual seeking a doctorate such as the Psy.D, for purposes other than for licensing as a Psychologist, possesses a clinical license to practice in their respective state, implies that they have already met the state board criteria for supervised clinical practicum and internship hours. Therefore, it is superfluous whether the doctorate has a practicum or clinical component because the nature of their masters level license is clinical, and solely seeking the doctorate for whatever reason the practitioner has, does not negate the clinician's ethical conduct or indicate any ulterior motive to misrepresent themselves to the public.

 

At one point Southern Christian University (now called something else) offered a Doctor of Ministry degree that qualified for licensure as an LMFT. Similarly, the University of Sarasota (now Argosy) offered an Ed.D. that qualified for LPC Licensure.

I think the issue here was PsyD giving the impression of being a Psychologist.

Frankly, much of the public could not tell you the difference between a Psychologist, Psychiatrist, or a Psychotherapist. Much less an LPC/LMHC and a Clinical Social Worker or MSW.

 

Then, that defeats the purpose of getting a "clinical" doctorate. If you aren't going to do a practicum or internship, then you might as well get a PhD or Ed.D.

 

It's now called Amridge University, and they still offer a DMin in Family Therapy.

http://www.amridgeuniversity.edu/academics/humanservices/dmainfamilytherapyi/

 

There are quite a few EdD programs out there that require a capstone or an applied project instead of a traditional dissertation. There are also many PsyD programs that require a dissertation.

 

RESPONSE: However, the Psy.D does not include the term 'Clinical" but a doctorate in Psychology, meaning that it can focus on non-clinical specializations such as Organizational Psychology, Health Psychology, etc.

Furthermore, as I stated previously, MANY masters level licensed mental health professionals are not seeking a research oriented doctorate which the vast majority of Ph.D's and Ed.D's are!

 

If they don't want a clinical doctorate, and they don't want a research doctorate, then what do they want? It sounds like they just want the "doctor" title without any substantial improvement to practice.

 

RESPONSE: Yes, there are EdD programs that offer tcapstone or applied projects BUT THEY GENERALLY ARE NOT CLINICALLY ORIENTED DOCTORAL DEGREES IN A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSION, based on the content of their curriculum.

Btw, I did not state that there aren't PsyD programs requiring dissertations but that the VAST MAJORITY DON'T.

 

RESPONSE: With all due respect, you're missing the point entirely relating to this issue. There are myriad reasons as to the basis for seeking a doctorate in Psychology which may be for title, to further one's education in a mental health discipline, for promotional opportunities which may not be eligible solely on the basis of a masters degree, or merely for personal attainment. So obtaining such a degree does not negatively impugn on the ethics or ulterior motives of the individual seeking such a degree because they are seeking a legitimate WASC (in the case of CSU) degree which must meet high standards for academic content as well as focus on the field of study indicated, in the case of CSU, doctoral level Psychology.

 

There's really not much of a difference between masters-level courses and doctoral-level courses. I get the personal attainment thing, and I also know that many just want the title. I don't think there is anything unethical about wanting the doctor title, but at the same time, it doesn't quite make sense to get a doctorate in something that is outside of your profession so that you can advance in your profession. There are differences in the curriculum between counseling and psychology programs.

This distinction between PsyD and PhD programs came before the advent of online programs. When you complete a doctorate online, the differences are almost erased. Students in PhD programs are usually expected to collaborate with professors on research projects and start publishing papers. Psychology involves a lot of research with direct contact with human subjects, so this is nearly impossible to do as an online student. PsyD students were expected to receive more clinical training and do less research. In an online PhD program, one is not likely to do much collaboration on research projects, and there is not as much pressure to publish while in the program. A PsyD without hands-on training goes against the original intention behind having PsyD programs.

I get people's concerns about patients being confused. There's also this concern when nurse practitioners earn doctorates and work directly with physicians. The general public doesn't understand the nuances of all these things. If you have to explain to a patient that your doctorate in psychology is largely meaningless, then it makes one wonder why you even got it in the first place, or why you even put the initials behind your name. Why earn a title if you have to deal with the hassle of explaining it away?

 

RESPONSE: who says you have "...to deal with the hassle of explaining it away"? In fact, the majority of clients do not get so involved in such probing discussions, especially when the Clinician forthrightly elucidates his credentials, scope of expertise related to his clinical discipline and abides by his/her state board's rules snd regulations pertaining to providing clinical services and marketing practices in an ethical manner.

In fact, studies reveal that it is the formation of a good rapport and working therapeutic alliance with the client that is of paramount importance in initiating and sustaining a clinical relationship with a client, regardless of degree level.

 

RESPONSE: I don't know about the rest of y'all, but the back-and-forth in this thread, which has boiled down to a mutual verbal masturbation session between two doctoral wanna-be's, is boring the crap out of me.