IRA lay down arms

The IRA is still an organization of armed thugs who shoot innocent unarmed people who worship God in a different way ... just like the PLO.

 

Ted, do you really think that you can adequately describe and dismiss hundreds of years of blood-stained struggle with one sentence?
Jack
The truth is rarely pure and never simple.
Oscar Wilde

 

Not necessarily. But back to my original question. The original English claim to Ireland was based on some mediaeval pope "giving" Ireland to England (based on the admittedfly fraudulent Donation of Constantine) during the 1100s. For the most part, at first, the English only occupied the area around Dublin called the Pale. Then during the 1500s and 1600s, Henry VIII and later Cromwell decided to enforce their claims to Ireland. As a result, some persons of English blood do live on the island of Ireland. Many of them have had ancestors living there for 400 or 500 years, some even for 900 years. Are they to be dismissed so lightly? And no, shooting unarmed civilians is never right, not even if you do it in the name of heaven hoping to justify it in the end.

 

Listen, Ted. Your five sentence version of the history of Ireland has left out just a few details. Before you come to any conclusions, and before you attempt to convince anyone else that you actually know something about this subject, you should probably read eight or ten books on the subject. You mention the Pale but you don't seem to know what it really means.
And while we're at it, what is it exactly that you mean when you use the phrase "some persons of English blood," What has blood to do with it? Don't you realize that this sort of thinking is the origin of the entire problem? People are people. Humans are humans. English blood, Irish blood, these terms mean nothing. Humans are humans and should be treated as humans. This is the origin of the entire problem. Clearly there's wrong on both sides. Don't perpetuate it.
Jack

 

Same perpetuation goes on when others try to depict the IRA as an NGO in spïte of its criminal record.

 

Well, I don't insist on my IRA vs. PLO comparason. Both groups seem to me to be about as nasty as they should be.

 

SEVENTH REPORT OF THE INDEPENDENT MONITORING COMMISSION

http://www.nio.gov.uk/seventh_report_of_the_independent_monitoring_commission.pdf

 

IMC all-clear to IRA but UVF criticised

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=665794

IRA progress signs 'encouraging'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4356802.stm

 

I’m glad you mentioned the European Union. Sinn Fein MEPs do not have to contend with a unionist veto in the European Parliament.

A recent speech by Sinn Fein MEP, Bairbre de Brún:

http://www.europarl.eu.int/omk/sipade3?PUBREF=-//EP//TEXT+CRE+20050905+ITEM-017+DOC+XML+V0//EN&L=EN&LEVEL=2&NAV=S&LSTDOC=Y&MODE-CRE=SEARCH&DETAIL=1-048&LSTDOC=N

 

That´s just the conventional terrorism apologist rethoric. Nothing new. I am sure she/he gained a lot of support and understanding from MEP.....

This is what the EU thinks of the IRA:

http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33208.htm

IRA, Hamas, AL Qaeda, etc are all declared terrorist organizations and listed as such. No Robin Hoodesque portrayal. Pure terrorism.

 

JLV,


Did you read what she said? Please point out the terrorist apologetic in her speech.

 

Which is nothing but an euphemism for terrorism. The fact that he/she said it in the European agora is even more grotesque. Do you know that among the MEP there are many who have lost brothers, sisters, friends, colleagues to "armed struggling" (i.e. indiscriminate killing of unarmed innocent people)?

 

Just for clarification

Just for clarification. I don’t have anything especially against the IRA. Their British counterparts are equally repulsive. The only reason I participate here is because I find exasperatingly insulting to portray the IRA´s methods (or those of any other terrorists association for that matter) as a legitimate way to get a political objective. That’s the type of cynism that pisses me off. While the rest of the world is forced to condemn and abhor what happened in NYC (and rightly so), still some people try to make differences among different terrorisms, which constitutes itself an oxigen bottle to terrorists. I find that perverse to confer legitimacy to that type of actions, and that’s why I participate in this thread. Great that the IRA is disarming. It is such a propagandistic tool, nevertheless it is great news. But let’s not forget that they don’t do it for pious, compassionate reasons but for strategic ones. It is not that they have suddenly realized it is wrong to indiscriminately kill people. It is good that terrorist decided to stop killing, it is great that rapist don’t rape and it is extraordinary that thieves don’t steel. But we don’t have to feel grateful for that. That’s just their obligation.

 

I have not condoned and I do not condone the actions of the IRA or any other terrorist organization, however there are times that people must defend themselves.

I'm sure you are aware that almost twice as many people were murdered at Srebrenica due to the Dutch Army's shameful dereliction of duty than lost their lives in nearly 40 years of the troubles in Northern Ireland.

 

Yes, Charles, that´s what Osama´s people said on 911.

Yes, I am aware the UN provided no support to a few inexpert Dutch soldiers against a well seasoned Serbian army. But what does it have to do with this? Are you implying that those Dutch guys somehow killed the Muslims? And yada yada the IRA has the right to kill innocent people..... Are you trying to get there, Charles? That there some sort exist political relativism in terrorism definition and thus everybody is entitled to use violence? After all, if states also act violently..... Isthat what you are saying?

 

I'm not going to give a history lesson on Srebrenica, but the fact is that your government begged for the mission, your army failed miserably, allowing thousands to be murdered, and then had the unmitigated audacity to ask the UN for medals.

My point is that there are times when a people must defend themselves or die.

 

Are you by chance familar with what happened in Srebrenica? It is commonly accepted that the UN miserably failed to provide support to those soldiers. My government? My army? What are you talking about? On top of that, what does all this BS have to do with a bunch of predators killing children in a toy store in Christmas? Can you enlighten us all, please?

 

Again, I maintain if it were not for decades of Unionist discrimination against Catholics along with the atrocities committed by a brutal police force that the rise of the modern Provisional IRA might not have ever occurred. That is not to say that I condone any of the IRA's actions.

Regarding Srebrenica, despite attempted cover-ups, the information is out there for the world to see.

 

The word BS is no the most approrpriate one so my apologies for having used it. It is just that I don´t see what those sad events have to do with terrorism. I hope you bringing up of those incidents inSrebrenica is nothing personal. Let´s stay in the ideas realm. I am not even Dutch so please don´t get there.

 

I don´t even dispute whether their claims are just or not. Probably they are. All I am saying is that that doesn´t justify the killings of innocent children and women because then they lose all legitimacy they had. By doing that, they turn into criminals.