Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by nosborne48, Dec 10, 2019.

  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    There's another issue waiting in the weeds for Trump. We have to go waaaay back to the Mueller Report for this one. You might remember that the basic conclusion to the report was that there were, in fact, violations of the law. However, there's a kind of unofficial policy of not indicting a sitting President. Well at some point Trump will not be President. Maybe it will be in 2020 or maybe in 2024 but at some point he'll just be a plain old citizen like you and me. It's entirely possible that on that day the hammer will fall and Trump could be charged with all sorts of fun stuff. I'd be wiling to bet there's already a plan in process. Of course, at that point the jury won't be a bunch of fat-cat Senatorial toadies. It will be a bunch of ordinary citizens. It's just something to think about as you dance around shouting AQUITTED!
  2. copper

    copper Active Member

    That's my point, the true verdict comes out on election day! Our opinions are meaningless!
  3. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    The goal was always to engineer a "soft coup". They wanted to undo the 2016 election and remove the President from office. Which would have merely created President Pence, which wouldn't really have advanced their cause a whole lot. So we all know that they would have set to work on removing him too, in hopes of installing an unelected (and unelectable) President Pelosi.

    Their problem is that conviction in the Senate requires a 2/3'ds vote. Given that the Democrats are the minority party in the Senate, they would have had to turn more than 1/3 of the Republican Senators to their cause.

    That in turn would require a smoking gun. Something (anything) heinous enough to turn a sufficient number of Republicans. For the first three years of Trump's administration, they hoped and prayed that Mueller would hand it to them. Trump was about to go down, any day! It was coming, right around the corner! That drumbeat continued day after day after day after day... We saw it illustrated right here on Degreeinfo in thread after thread.

    Then Mueller didn't deliver what they wanted. So just a few days later, anonymous sources in the deep state vomited up this Ukraine bullshit.

    After Mueller, I don't think that they held out much hope that the inane Ukraine bullshit would turn enough Senate Republicans to remove the President. They did have a narrow majority in the House though and could pass impeachment articles, and they hoped that they could turn a few Republicans in the Senate, enough to give removal a narrow (but not 2/3'ds) simple majority. They apparently hoped that a House impeachment vote along with with a narrow simple majority vote in the Senate would weaken the President enough that he would no longer threaten the wonderful (No)God-ordained Obama agenda.

    Events showed that they failed to even get a simple majority for removal in the Senate. All they got was a party-line vote and one ostensible Republican with an apparent personal grudge on one count. So that scheme failed too.

    It is ironic how they tried to revive the cold war, 16 years after the fall of Russian communism. In the 1950's, Joseph McCarthy and his House Unamerican Activities Committee were widely condemned, mostly by the left, for seeking out evidence of communist infiltration of things like the US film industry. Despite our now knowing that it was in fact happening. American communists in those industries were turned into heroes.

    Today it's turned 180 degrees. Today the Russians aren't communists and it's the left making the accusations of foreign subversive influence. Distrust of Russian influence back then was supposedly an evil violation of "liberalism", while today it's largely coming from those same self-styled righteous 'liberals'.

    Right. And that's ALL they have cared about since 2016. The Democrats don't seem to stand for anything except hatred these days. They hate the President, they hate half the American people, they hate Western history and tradition, they hate the American nation. (And males, whites, "cis-gendered" anything...)

    What the Democrats haven't done, or even tried to do, is understand why President Trump won the 2016 election. Democrats haven't tried to understand the concerns of traditionally Democratic voters that crossed over, nor have they made any attempt to speak to those concerns. There's been no attempt to argue that the Democratic party will address those voters' concerns better than the Republicans can.

    It's just non-stop 24/7 HATRED. They hate Trump, so there must be something, some crime or heinous abuse that they can uncover. They just know it it because he's so evil in their eyes. They will never stop looking. And the corrupt and increasingly discredited media will continue to run with each masturbatory stroke.

    Sane and intelligent people have to be aware that it isn't ever going to stop until or unless one of their "progressives" returns to power and the country is once again heading leftwards, towards the utopian future that Saint Obama promised them. The promised Kingdom that Trump and his "deplorables" so rudely hijacked. Eschatology postponed.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Talk about hatred....

    Doesn't change what he's done. Nor, it would seem, what he is going to do.
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Three years of constant attacks against the President. And obviously against the ones who voted for him.
    Attacks against the constitution. One has to wonder was there really a peaceful transfer of power in 2016?
    Yet there were a few by partisan achievements if only the 2 sides cooperated more.
    And at the time of all these witchhunts the 3 years of major achievements of President Trump and WH administration, here are some:

    Many more issues need to be worked on.
    The National Deficit, Education, To improve the earning power of the people especially the poor.
    Infrastructure, Healthcare, etc. etc.
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Again, none of that changes the fact that he's committed multiple crimes and has been implicated in many more.
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member


    I didn't see any real proof that crimes committed by President Trump. I saw allegations but I'm not a law professional. And all that is available to me is very limited.
    I did hear and saw that the allegations are inflated and other law professionals quite distinguished support that view that no crimes were committed.
    We are living in a free country and people have their opinions.

    There are Democrats and Republicans who are on the watch for our security and our freedom.
    United we stand divided we fall.
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Respectfully, really? Not one? How about things he actually had to pay penalty for, namely Trump University and "irregularities" in the Trump Foundation? Not to mention that you have to, have to be willfully blind to not see the sleaze that is "you have to give us a favor, though". In context of the Crowdstrike hoax and the supposed Biden "corruption", two conspiracy theories that actually originated from our part of the world and that we should be able to see from, like a mile away.

    You know what I also like? How people defending Trump immediately run to the safety of "people have their opinions", in questions that are seemingly factual. It is almost (almost!) as if these people do not really CARE about any potential crimes the guy committed, as long as he's on "their side".

    So in other words, you are saying that you stand for unity, against division, and for that reason support Donald the Joker Trump? You're not alone, plenty of people say that. You know what I hear? "I can't defend my position, but sure do not care about any of the people he insults or hurts".... in best case scenario... "as long as I get my tax cut". Oh, but "do not dare to challenge me on this because freedom". Moral issue here. And I say this with all possible respect; I have close friends with whom I had this exact conversation. Disagree with them too.

    Seriously, people of our background should, first, be more critical of all the lies he spews; and second, know who this guy is from at least the moment he had Paul "I'm in debt to Deripaska" Manafort as a freaking campaign chair.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    He’s committed many crimes while president.
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    You bought into all the fake news. To bad.

    We have a great President, nobody else would have lasted a month under what this president had to endure.
    I may not agree on all of his views but it's obvious that this is something they have been planning regardless of substance. They are doing this because President Trump won.

    Let’s take a look at the phone call. The transcript of the phone call’s been released. There’s nothing criminal or impeachable in the phone call. And everybody who’s read the transcript knows that that’s the case. And yet what are the Democrats doing? The Democrats are fabricating! They’re literally lying. They’re making up what the president said on that call. And the media is amplifying it.

    They are making things up. They are fulfilling a political objective they’ve had since the moment they realized they’d lost the election in November of 2016. The impeachment of Donald Trump is not because he’s a bad president. It’s not because he’s broken the law. It’s not because he’s committed any impeachable offense.

    It’s because they don’t like him. It’s because they hate him. It’s because they hate the people who voted for him.
    Noting is going to change the things because it’s not gonna change the way the media and the Democrats are reporting it or talking about it. They’re gonna keep lying about it. They’re gonna keep making up things about it. They’re gonna keep going back to Russia because that’s where they really think the gold mine still is.
  11. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    When almost all of one's news comes from the Trump media network Fox news then political reality is not on the menu.
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Regardless of how one feels about the president, he did commit crimes. How someone may or may not feel about him is not exculpatory.
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Amazing. Poor Trumpy is a victim? People really take his snowflake whine seriously? Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

    Listen, I've read the "transcript" (technically, it's a memo, not a transcript). In combination with delayed military aid, it is, clearly, a shakedown. Arguably, it breaks three different laws - it's a solicitation of an illegal campaign contribution, bribery scheme, and delaying an approved expense without notifying the Congress. But that's not all! In addition, we have the adventures of a comedic trio of Rudy, Parnas and Fruman, which are a disgrace for US AND Ukraine. For me, the additional kicker is how the clowns removed an ambassador at the request of Yuri Lutsenko! That pathetic excuse for a Prosecutor is a player in global politics, just as he was losing all relevance in Ukrainian one. Total disgrace.

    Trump broke multiple laws as President, and more ethical standards. The two articles of impeachment approved by the House was just a tip of the iceberg.

    Even absent any proof of lawbreaking, Trump's business with the Agalarovs and whoever else participated in Trump Tower Moscow deal is, by itself, shady enough to not let the guy anywhere near US national security. You're from ex-USSR, you know what that's like. It's unbelievable how you can repeat trumpy talking points like his uninformed American fans do.
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Trump Tower Moscow would have been the same business strategy as other Trump towers. The business practice is to get a major celebrity or a leader of a country to own a suite in the tower and that triples the price of the other suites. People pay a lot of money to have a suite in the same tower with a famous sports figure or a leader and imagine if the deal materialized buyers would pay for a suite in the tower that President Putin owns a suite.

    This was not illegal.

    As to the transcript, both witnesses Lt Col and the lady I don't recall her name at this time confirmed that the Transcript was very accurate.

    This shows transparency from the president's side.

    With all this going on President Trump gained additional support form the people, his popularity is higher. A lot of people here see the 3 years of persecution as something very negative and holding it against the Dem's.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Are you serious now? Building towers in Moscow is no different than in other places? You actually can build in Moscow and break no laws? Funny how that works.

    Trump disagrees with you, because he hid and lied about those negotiations.

    It's not even about illegal. It's way too close relationships with some incredibly shady people. Which DID led to things like Trump Tower meeting - again, Trump lied about it too, so don't say it was perfect.

    Yes, the memorandum is very accurate, It is also very incriminating.


    A thing people often ignore is the effect Trump has on his base. What must have happened to someone like you that compels you to say things like "3 years of persecution" with no apparent irony? "Persecution"? Seriously?
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It is a "read out," not a transcript. Yes, it seems it was pretty accurate. As Stanislav noted, the document testifies to several the president's own words.
    Possibly. Except that it wasn't released until its existence was revealed. Just as he didn't release the withheld aid until he was caught withholding it.
    Persecution? That sounds very weak. Considering the Republicans held power for the first two years, I'm not sure how the Democrats could have persecuted him. Hint: they didn't. The Mueller investigation was conducted by a Republican appointed by a Republican who, in turn, stood in for a Republican appointed by a Republican who had to recuse himself because the Republican who appointed him was the subject of the Republican's investigation. All the witness in the investigation were Republicans, as were all the sources of evidence. The Democrats had nothing to do with any of it. In fact, they didn't even pursue the matter and didn't move to impeach the president until he committed crimes and abused his office in the Ukraine matter.

    As for his popularity, it hasn't really moved. It fluctuates, with recent movements being consistent with prior ones. He's the only president in polling history who has never--not ever--seen a job approval rating above 50%, not even on his first day in office.

    None of this changes the fact that the president has committed many crimes while in office.
  17. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Using fake Dosier and obtaining FISA based on false information was omitted from the previous replies.
    I understand that people have opinions about elected officials.
    What Irony? Its a fact.
    All one needs is to turn the TV on one of the left propaganda TV channels. All it does is attacking President Trump and WH administration 24 x 7.
    I was flipping channels on the TV, just turned it on. The first thing that comes up on MSNBC is Elisabeth Warren want new task force to INVESTIGATE.
    This is a never-ending fiasco. The party became an Investigate party.
    What will happen to them when they lose again in Nov 2020?
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    There was no "fake Dosier and obtaining FISA based on false information"; this is tendentious reporting by Fox. A dossier, which is "raw intelligence" (basically, collection of rumors) was corroborated to far greater degree this thing has any right to be. FISA became relevant because Trumpworld crawls with people like Carter Page and Paul Manafort - and whose fault is that? BTW I can't believe these things about Trump don't bother you.

    Yeah it is. Trump dealt with likely criminals in Russia and elsewhere, and tried to conceal it. Fact.

    This is only because Trump keeps committing crimes. Situation with Roger Stone right now looks exactly like obstruction of justice and witness tampering. Republicans used to want crimes investigated. Even non-crimes like Benghazi.

    What will happen if Trump wins in Nov 2020? Easy - he'll continue to commit crimes. That's what crooks do.
  19. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    They may have to go onto the defensive soon since others can play the same game. Attorney General Bill Barr has assigned US Attorney John Durham to investigate the seeming weaponization of the security and police agencies (FBI, CIA) against political enemies for partisan purposes, the whole 'Crossfire Hurricane' thing, the "insurance policy" and the basis for the Mueller investigation. To say nothing of these organizations' close collaboration with foreign intelligence agencies like British intelligence to surveil, set up and shake down American members of an opposition political campaign. We know that Durham's people have been in Europe talking to intelligence people there.

    So felony criminal indictments against people like Strozk, Page, McCabe, Comey, Clapper and Brennan (conceivably even Obama) might be announced in a few months. It has at least the potential of becoming the largest political scandal in US history, dwarfing Watergate. We don't hear much about it right now it because 1) the media aren't politically motivated to report about it since it isn't targeted at bringing down Trump, and 2) because unlike Mueller's investigation, John Durham's doesn't leak like a sieve. It's kind of stealthily percolating under the surface.

    But knowledge that it's out there might arguably be part of the reason for the Democrats' frenzy now. Some of them probably fear what might be coming. It will be interesting to see whether indictments come out before or after the election.

    There will likely be a huge civil war inside the Democratic party over the future direction of the party. My guess is that the left-base will win and the Democrats might condemn themselves to being a Venezuela-style radical-left party: socialist, 'woke' and forever fringe. Of course the Republicans will be in turmoil too. (They already are.) The Republicans might themselves split between a Trumpist populist wing (the solid majority of their voters) and their Romney/McCain big business establishment wing (small in numbers, big in lobbyists, money and attitude). A lot of moderate Democrats might abandon their own radicals and join that latter group, creating a new ostensibly centrist party. My guess is that it might not have any more success than the UK's abortive Change UK party, since it will be inherently unstable, with some members leaning left on some issues and right on others, so that all of them reaching agreement on anything would be a battle. The "center" will also be squeezed from both sides by the populists and the leftists.

    I still think that the US is entering into a period of wholesale political reconfiguration as new political parties and new voting blocs emerge and become institutionalized. (It hasn't really happened here since right before the Civil War.)
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  20. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Dem's double standard is very obvious. Especially how they apply it.

    Indeed turbulent times ahead.

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