If a course is homologated, is it considered official in Spain or still propio?

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by TeacherBelgium, Nov 8, 2020.

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  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    If your place gets fleas, you buy spray -or maybe call a professional. It's not OK to let them proliferate. Same with this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And anyone would want a degree from that school - why? I don't consider it a suitable model for how a legit school should be operating. "Monkey see, monkey do" just doesn't cut it. On one hand, you're trying to legitimize the activities of school that, on the other hand, is the type you say people should "educate" themselves about. Pick a lane.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I am not trying to legitimize, but there are facts of life you like it or not. Schools operate legally in Spain selling this type of credentials. In Canada, it is not much different, you can legally register a school in a non regulated field (lets say alternative medicine) and then print diplomas that say Doctor of Natural Medicine. In Ontario there are several places granting Doctors of Natural Medicine, Holistic, etc. There are no regulations that prevent someone from selling these credentials. Most likely these places will disappear over the years as people will realize that these degrees cannot be used to work in clinics or issue insurance receipts. It is just market driven, unless there is harm, you can call yourself PhD in NM but no clinic is going to hire you unless you are licensed.

    Government cannot be spending lots of time and energies shutting down schools that grant unaccredited credentials. The only exemption is when the RCMP gets a report of a crime that involves the use of a non accredited credential. In Quebec there was the case of a person practicing natural medicine that was a suspect of a crime but court found her non guilty. If she was found guilty, probably that would have triggered a new bill to prevent people from practicing natural medicine. This is how the legal system works, the government only acts where the protection of the public is the issue. If I issue a PhD in Ufology, the government is not going to go after me unless there is an illegal activity related to this, the person cannot get a job in the government or industry with a PhD in Ufology and the degree would maybe useful just to boost my ego or sell some books about UFOs.
     
  4. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes, that spay cost millions of dollars on lawyers and legal work. Would you spend millions of dollars trying to shutdown a school that issues an unaccredited doctorate in spiritual healing?. Shutting down schools means creating bills and going after illegal schools. That why we have professional colleges and orders in Quebec, if the public needs to be protected, the colleges have the authority to shut down illegal schools and go after people using fake credentials. If the public is not affected, then the person can just claim to be a PhD in anything that is non regulated. The law establishes that it is up to the employer to accept the credential, that means that as an employer, I can refuse your PhD from regional accredited school just because I don't like the school, there is no law that forces me to accept the PhD even if accredited.
     
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    They spend a lot of money, time and energy in less productive endeavours. we hear about billion-dollar boondoggles even here in the Great White North, eh? The Great Cleanup in Hawaii was effected by a small group, led by one dedicated consumer affairs attorney.

    We need a hero.
     
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  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    One school? It wouldn't cost that. They'd likely run out of money long before I would - assuming I worked for the Government. But to shut ALL bogus schools down? Yes, I definitely would. Not very many millions, mind - but... It'd be worth a few, for sure. Save a lot of potential damage, too.

    Two things should go hand in hand - standards and enforcement. Folks tend to forget that, sometimes to their peril.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  7. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Maybe this can be you. This is call activism, you can create an activist group that puts pressure on the government to regulate the use of illegal credentials. It can be done. Germany and other countries forbid the use of unaccredited credentials so it can be done.
     
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I think the best thing would be a quick, clean, efficient enforcement mechanism against these schools. France had a useful mechanism. I think they called it a "guillotine" or something like that. They didn't abolish it until 1981. Maybe I can pick up a used one, cheap. :)

    Word would get around --- problem solved.
     
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The whole university system was created by the Catholic church. All you have to do is go back in time and reinstate the inquisition. Back then, any person that would not teach something approved by the catholic church was just burnt in public. So all those stinky degrees that are not approved by the authority (not the pope anymore but some kind of government authority), they can just be sentenced to death by the inquisition.

    The system started as an authoritarian institution and doctors of theology were the ones ones that could teach the others. Eventually this developed into a doctor of philosophy. The system is very old and does not longer correspond to the modern system where there is really no authority as everything changes all the time. Degrees in my opinion will disappear in the future and we will replace them with something less authoritarian but it is part of the evolution process. Coursera and other platforms are starting to develop something new that is recognized by employers, these are not degrees but the just show that you have learned a subject. Google is not longer required degrees but their own certificates. Maybe the future will just require people to learn in a company directly through some support from online learning, even professors I am not sure if they will survive as most become obsolete very fast and tenure does not help them to keep up to date.

    What you are witnessing is really just the dissolution of an old system and the beginning of a new system that we don't know yet how will evolve. I don't believe in the inquisition but you are welcome to go back in time and just use this approach but I have a feeling that you will get resistance.
     
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Well, we'd better take a hand in the evolution then. Mills etc. have been a problem since the Middle Ages. Why should the problem be allowed to perpetuate and proliferate itself in the new system?

    The problem didn't suddenly start when the schools stopped teaching Latin (although I sometimes like to think so.) :)
     
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I find myself supremely unmotivated. As an activist or protester, I'd likely get arrested. I don't need that. I have to get to work now - on my Metaphysics doctorate - you know, Sedona and all that. And after that, I have to buy my Doctor of the Universe from Universal Life Church. What a deal! Only $120.... :)
     
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    @Johann766

    Johann - there's a caveat in those graduados propios (propio bachelors) I mentioned. It doesn't get the grad entry into a master's - not even a master propio. Reason: like all propios, it's not Ministry recognized - and a Ministry-recognized bachelor's is required for Spanish students to enter a Master's - propio or regular. And a properly recognized / accredited Bachelor's from other countries is required for foreign students to enter a higher degree - propio or recognized. IIRC, I think that info is in a source cited earlier in this thread, under "admission requirements":
    https://acei-global.blog/2015/05/28/spain-understanding-and-evaluating-the-titulo-propio/

    And no - I have no real answer on the DBA propio. I can't figure how the University can award it under its own auspices. Never seen such a thing. Maybe someone else knows.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2023
  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    We DID have a situation where a known good Polish university offered a DBA by distance - and got into trouble, because that degree, DBA, does not exist in the Polish educational schema. Authorities made them drop it. But this is different. A DBA, Doctor en Administracion de Empresas / Negocios (or close) is in the Spanish schema, I believe. I'm out of ideas, as I said.
     
  14. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    Very interesting, thanks a lot for clearing this up.
    If there is a list of allowed titulo propios in the Ley de Reforma Universitaria 1983 but no list of prohibited titulo propios - maybe UCAM was like, if it´s not explicitly prohibited to offer a propio Doctorate - why not actually offer one. Still I haven´t found the relevant paragraph in the Ley de Reforma Universitaria 1983 which regulates the propios yet, I´ll keep looking.
     
  15. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    I found a paragraph in a Spanish University Law that allows to offer "courses leading to obtaining other titles" than the official degrees, meaning titulo propios.
    I still haven´t found the paragraph which precisely names which titulos propios Spanish Universities are allowed to offer (or not allowed) :-(



    LEY ORGÁNICA 4/2007, de 12 de abril, por la que se modifica la Ley Orgánica 6/2001, de 21 de diciembre, de Universidades.

    Artículo 34. Títulos universitarios.

    1. Las universidades impartirán enseñanzas conducentes a la obtención de títulos oficiales y con validez en todo el territorio nacional y podrán impartir enseñanzas conducentes a la obtención de otros títulos.

    2. Los títulos universitarios de carácter oficial y con validez en todo el territorio nacional deberán inscribirse en el Registro de universidades, centros y títulos, previsto en la disposición adicional vigésima. Podrán inscribirse otros títulos a efectos informativos. El Gobierno regulará el procedimiento y las condiciones para su inscripción.


    which Google translates into English as follows:


    ORGANIC LAW 4/2007, of April 12, which modifies Organic Law 6/2001, of December 21, on Universities.
    Article 34. University degrees.

    1. Universities will teach courses leading to obtaining official titles valid throughout the national territory and may teach courses leading to obtaining other titles.

    2. University degrees of an official nature and valid throughout the national territory must be registered in the Registry of Universities, Centers and Degrees, provided for in the twentieth additional provision. Other titles may be registered for informational purposes. The Government will regulate the procedure and conditions for registration.
     
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    QUOTE="Johann766, post: 582142, member: 48007"]I still haven´t found the paragraph which precisely names which titulos propios Spanish Universities are allowed to offer (or not allowed) :-([/QUOTE]
    Well, Johann, maybe that's becasue it isn't there. I dunno what else to say. Here's a page on propios from a Spanish University (Universidad Pablo Olavide in Seville).
    https://www.upo.es/postgrado/es/formacion-permanente/titulos-propios/PREGUNTAS-FRECUENTES-TITULOS-PROPIOS/

    As you will see it says:

    ¿Permite el acceso a un Doctorado?
    En ningún caso los Títulos Propios dan acceso a un doctorado.

    Does this (a propio) grant access to a Doctoral program?
    In no case does a propio give access to a Doctorate.

    To me, that means: No access to a Doctorate from a propio - because the Doctorate itself will be a Ministry recognized one - never a propio itself. It also lists the types of propio this particular university teaches:

    • Máster Propio, comprenderán los estudios de 60, 90 ó 120 ECTS.
    • Diploma de Especialización, comprenderán los estudios de de 30 ó 40 ECTS.
    • Título de Experto Universitario, comprenderán los estudios de 15 ó 20 ECTS.
    • Certificado Universitario, comprederán los estudios de 5 ó 10 ECTS.
    • Diploma de Extensión Universitaria, comprenderán los estudios con una duración mayor o igual a 30 ECTS.
    • Certificado de Extensión Universitaria, comprenderán los estudio con una duración menor de 30 ECTS. Doc
    I also tried Google (in Spanish) for propio Doctorates in Spain (Doctorados propios en España) - no luck. None offered it seems - just 3 pages of entries that you can't get a doctorate without a Ministry-recognized Master's, or foreign equivalent. By their absence, I'm presuming propio doctorates don't exist. And I think that's because they're not allowed. If they were, I'd think there'd be a helluva busy market in them.

    If someone can prove me wrong, I'd learn something. I'd appreciate that. But it seems unlikely, given zero results so far.

    Johann 666
     
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I also asked (in Spanish) "Why are there no doctorado propio programs in Spanish universities? Again, no relevant answers - just the old "you can't get into a doctoral program without a Ministry- recognized Master's (or foreign equivalent)." I have no skin in this game - so I'm not exploring it any further. Someone does find any of these programs - or an official reason why there are none - I'd learn, and that's all good. Don't want one, myself. I have enough to do.

    Johann 666
     

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