Ground zero question

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by rickyjo, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    I'm not seeing the difference on the surface between this attitude and that of the old testament.

    Read numbers 31 (for one of literally dozens of examples I'm aware of). We Christians have some serious explaining to do to make that go away. I believe that one must be damn near an expert on the religion and society to fully--or even partially--understand the context, I also tend to acknowledge the possibility of human tampering.

    The point is, there is a great deal of allegedly god-condoned violence in the Bible as well, I'm not saying this to step on Christians toes (being one myself) but to suggest that one must not apply a double standard when dealing with a less familiar religion. It seems to me that we are applying a double standard. I think one could make a good case that Christianity is a violent religion by the standards we apply to Islam.

    So I guess the point is: Don't jump to conclusions
  2. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I’m only one class away from my BRS from Nations and I have taken other courses on the bible and I can tell you they are on whole different levels.

    So flying into buildings doesn’t count?
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2010
  3. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    Does bombing abortion clinics count?

    I understand the problems are on different levels but every religion has its crazies and so does every region. I suspect the significant violence in the middle east has more to do with their socio-economic position than their religion (some would make the argument that they are related but nobody has explained the connection to me as of yet). I believe it is like poverty is the root of most crime in the United States. Fix the living conditions and the violence will go away.

    I myself am very well versed in the Bible, and am quite aware of the nasty things that transpire so a simple statement that they are different is not enough. A lifetime of reading the Bible regularly since deep in my childhood and attending church since before I can remember (and I currently go to a Calvary church so it's not just a sermon, it's an in-depth reading every single Sunday) is a bit more substantial than two classes. You may have me in knowledge when it comes to the other text, but I know for sure what's in the Bible where and why. When God tells the Jews to kill in the old testament, over and over and over, when the a couple of the sons of Jacob go on a genocidal spree they are not punished or even reprimanded on record by God (only by Jacob and not for immorality but for putting their lives at risk), Deuteronomy 20:17 (also read Joshua for more context) involves genocide including elderly and newborns. In the following case there was a reprimand for not killing women and children:

    15 And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive? 16 Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.


    Now you don't think that from the outside looking in (or even the inside) this is a bit disturbing and similar in nature to the very thing you are condemning? Anybody with google can find examples of atrocities condoned by God in both texts, so the question is, are they both violent religions or is there potential that societal context has something to do with it? Is there potential that the text is wrong? Is there potential that the religion has changed? What is not obvious from a non-contextual reading of the text? I don't see Christians committing any of these atrocities any more (except the occasional whack-job), in the developed world you rarely see Islamic radicalism turn deadly, only in the poor and oppressed areas of the world is it a regular thing--and it's more often against each other than "unbelievers"; therefore, I would use that as the starting basis for an argument that perhaps the stem of the problem is not the religion but the society, the government, primarily. Even the radical deaths come from over there, not from home grown Islamic radicals (in the vast majority of cases).

    So I believe the conversation is more complicated than some would have us believe. We must take care not to accidentally take frames of mind that we will regret someday if the tables were turned.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2010
  4. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    I am a bit uncomfortable arguing against the Bible in any way (that is how my posts could be perceived) so I'm not going to contribute to that argument anymore. I just want to show that if we are going to accept the one we should at least more deeply consider the other outside of disembodied snippets.
  5. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    One problem with your whole argument is that people say they Islam is not a violent religion it’s about peace, I show its not, then I get well it’s the same as Christianity, no it is not. We’re not told to do forced conversions and to kill every last Jew. We do not do weekly bombings on non-believers. These people would kill us if they had a nuke. Look at the Lockerbie bomber that was just released, he got a freak in parade! He has his own national holiday day. There is no such thing as a peaceful Muslim, when it's a capital offense to have a bible in most middle eastern countries, why are Christians so accepting of this religion that has been a plague on the west? How many Christians do you see doing honor killings? When is the last time you heard of a 16 year old putting C4 in a jacking and blowing up Muslims? The worst mistake the US every made was kicking Sadam out of Iraq. He kept that region under control to a certain extent, other than oil why the hell are we even messing with these backwards countries?

    Sweet!!! 1,000th post..................
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Seriously? Like with a straight face and everything?

  7. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    No not really.......I'm sure there are.
  8. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Do you believe that everyone who calls his/herself a Christian truly is? For example, the KKK call themselves protestant Christians, while the people blowing each other up in Ireland call themselves either catholic or protestant christians. Did you miss the news about the "Christian" militia? Have you seen all the abortion clinic bombings done by "Christians" or The popes of history that have incited wars and persecuted dissenters violently all called themselves "Christians". The priests, of all denominations that have abused children called themselves "Christians." The violent conflicts between "Christians" in different parts of the former Soviet Union. Plantation owners who "owned" up to hundreds of nonwhites called themselves "Christians."

    Would it be fair, or even right, to say that Christianity is to blame for any of that when Christianity was nothing more than a mere mask for deeper motivations? When most of those people had no clue what the Bible actually says? When Jesus himself said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21) That such people claim to be "Christians" is a mere coincidence that is besides the fact.

    Moreover, would it be fair to do the same to Muslims? There are millions of Muslims in this country. MILLIONS. How many of them do you see strapping on bombs? This isn't about religion... this is about people who feel marginalized and are influenced by charismatic figures who convince them that the solution is to hatefully lash out at others. This is about an area of the world where people have little control over their lives, and whose knowledge of other people is limited by tyrants who use "Jews" "Christians" or "Westerners" as scapegoats for their problems. That they claim to be "Muslim" is just a coincidence that is besides the fact.
  9. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Are there many Muslims where you live? Where I live, there are plenty. They are generally hard-working, honest and friendly. Add to that, they seem to be much more open to a friendly discussion of religion and the Bible than the Catholics and those of the many Protestant denominations (including Baptists and Born-Again Christians).

    In fact, in my recent trip to an exotic land, I found that the "Christians" that I met were most often cold to me, and some where downright rude. No such problem with any of the Muslims, who were inviting, friendly and courteous.

    Of course, you wouldn't know that, because if you read any of the newspapers, you would only learn of the one Muslim out of ten million that tried to set fire to a church... and maybe you would skip past the part of the article that explains that the attempt was thwarted by a group of Muslim men who caught him in the act.
  10. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Do read my posts? I guess not. Me and Steve held this conversation in the above text, please feel free to take the time to read what I wrote in response to Steve F.

    So you asked everyone what their religion was? Or were you just stero typing people?

    Umm no....Do you not remember the reaction to the 9/11 attacks in the Middle East. People flooded the streets in praise of the attackers. I think there are a few good Muslims out their but there culture as a whole is very violent twords anyone who does not belive in Islam.

    Let me post some vidoes of events after the attack so I can remind everyone of all the nice Muslims MC keeps telling us about. I'm they all love America in the middle east right? I mean they treated you so nice right MC?

    YouTube - Muslims Celebrating 9/11

    YouTube - Palestinians celebrating the fall of the twin towers on 911

    Oh wait MC here’s a crowd of close to a million Muslims chanting "Death to America" but this is a peaceful religion I thought. I guess this shoots the whole not many of them are like this out of the water.

    YouTube - Iran wants "Death to America"

    They don't want to kill all the Jews and take over America do they?

    YouTube - Muslims Will Rule America, Britain

    Watch the whole thing, it starts out slow..

    YouTube - Re: The Moderate Muslim Myth

    Here’s a head Saudi Cleric on national TV telling Muslim men it’s ok to beat their wives and how to do it property.

    YouTube - Religion of Peace? The Proper Way to Beat Your Wife

    Muslims killing or Jailing Christians all over the world....

    YouTube - Muslim mobs slaughter 50 Christians over Muhammed cartoons
  11. Law-Dude

    Law-Dude New Member

    I'm an atheist and I like Islam the least of all the religions. That said, religious freedom is important and they have the right to build their mosque wherever they want.

    Maybe if they fly a nice big American flag on their building and their mosque-owned vehicles have "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbons on them they will prove that they're not the bunch of anti-Americans that their critics claim they are.

    I still think they're jerks for putting the building there, and wanting to open it on 9/11 as an "outreach." It's a day for memorial, not Islamic apologetics, but apparently the organizers don't see things that way. Did they ever think that maybe, just maybe, plenty of people don't want to have an outreach to them by Muslims on 9/11? The first outreach was enough.
  12. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I hope you do not fail to see the irony in that.
    Those people, yes. All Muslims, no. Those people are not even following the Qu'ran, so how is it fair to blame all of Islam for their hate?

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an, 2:62)
    Who's culture? There are Muslims everywhere, and they are not all ascribed to the same culture, nor are they all even similar. To say that they are all the same is similar to saying there is a problem with the "Latin American" culture or the "Native American" culture. It requires one to discount that they are not all the same, nor are all people inside the culture the same. There are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims.

    As for the people you mentioned, and the links I did not follow, you are talking about people who are brainwashed into thinking that all of their major problems in life are caused by this or that scapegoat. People who have not had the same exposure to varying viewpoints and the wealth of information that we have. What is taught in their Mosques is likely not the same thing that is taught in the Mosques of other regions. Again, the situation has nothing to do with Islam, rather, religion is simply used as a mask for deeper issues.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2010
  13. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    This is what is being taught in the majority of mosques across the US and the Middle East. Heck the Cleric wanting to build this mosque at the 9/11 sight believes Israel has no right to exist. His words not mine. Yet you still seem to think the religion is ok?

    But the Qur’an says that in the end times they will finally get to kill all of the Jews! Even the trees the Jews hide behind will tell on them.
    I mean do you believe beating your wife is ok? Let’s not all sit here and say that most Muslims are not devout followers of the Qur’an, which says it’s ok to beat your wife!
  14. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    And people call me arrogant. You only want your side to be heard if you do not look at what the other side presents. No matter if I think I’m right or wrong, I always read the whole post of the other person and check their links out.

  15. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I wasn't one of them. This discussion would go a whole lot more smoothly if you held back on making this personal.
    I read all of your posts. You posted 7 links, I wasn't going to bother with all of that. They weren't in any way related to the points I was trying to make. You seem to be trying to convince me that some Muslims are bad. I know that. What does that have to do with the millions upon millions that I am talking about who aren't?

    "What the other side presents" is a lot of hasty generalization and false cause.
  16. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I was actually trying to be funny....did you not notice the fact I posted my own
  17. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Then can we at least agree on the fact that I am much more funny* than you are? :D

  18. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I just wonder if people think I'm mad when I post this stuff.
  19. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Yes. In both senses of the word.
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Well, since you're sort of asking, I've suspected for a while now that you'd feel differently (or at least a lot less emotionally) about a lot of these things if you mingled more with the people about whom you have such strong opinions. And most of the people I've known who have opinions like yours were serious conservative talk radio junkies, as in accepting whatever they say without critical analysis of it. I obviously don't know you personally, so I'm not pretending to be certain about either of those, but that's how you come across, at least to me.

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