Ground zero question

I'm not seeing the difference on the surface between this attitude and that of the old testament.

Read numbers 31 (for one of literally dozens of examples I'm aware of). We Christians have some serious explaining to do to make that go away. I believe that one must be damn near an expert on the religion and society to fully--or even partially--understand the context, I also tend to acknowledge the possibility of human tampering.

The point is, there is a great deal of allegedly god-condoned violence in the Bible as well, I'm not saying this to step on Christians toes (being one myself) but to suggest that one must not apply a double standard when dealing with a less familiar religion. It seems to me that we are applying a double standard. I think one could make a good case that Christianity is a violent religion by the standards we apply to Islam.

So I guess the point is: Don't jump to conclusions

 

I’m only one class away from my BRS from Nations and I have taken other courses on the bible and I can tell you they are on whole different levels.

So flying into buildings doesn’t count?

 

Does bombing abortion clinics count?

I understand the problems are on different levels but every religion has its crazies and so does every region. I suspect the significant violence in the middle east has more to do with their socio-economic position than their religion (some would make the argument that they are related but nobody has explained the connection to me as of yet). I believe it is like poverty is the root of most crime in the United States. Fix the living conditions and the violence will go away.

I myself am very well versed in the Bible, and am quite aware of the nasty things that transpire so a simple statement that they are different is not enough. A lifetime of reading the Bible regularly since deep in my childhood and attending church since before I can remember (and I currently go to a Calvary church so it's not just a sermon, it's an in-depth reading every single Sunday) is a bit more substantial than two classes. You may have me in knowledge when it comes to the other text, but I know for sure what's in the Bible where and why. When God tells the Jews to kill in the old testament, over and over and over, when the a couple of the sons of Jacob go on a genocidal spree they are not punished or even reprimanded on record by God (only by Jacob and not for immorality but for putting their lives at risk), Deuteronomy 20:17 (also read Joshua for more context) involves genocide including elderly and newborns. In the following case there was a reprimand for not killing women and children:

15 And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive? 16 Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

-----

Now you don't think that from the outside looking in (or even the inside) this is a bit disturbing and similar in nature to the very thing you are condemning? Anybody with google can find examples of atrocities condoned by God in both texts, so the question is, are they both violent religions or is there potential that societal context has something to do with it? Is there potential that the text is wrong? Is there potential that the religion has changed? What is not obvious from a non-contextual reading of the text? I don't see Christians committing any of these atrocities any more (except the occasional whack-job), in the developed world you rarely see Islamic radicalism turn deadly, only in the poor and oppressed areas of the world is it a regular thing--and it's more often against each other than "unbelievers"; therefore, I would use that as the starting basis for an argument that perhaps the stem of the problem is not the religion but the society, the government, primarily. Even the radical deaths come from over there, not from home grown Islamic radicals (in the vast majority of cases).

So I believe the conversation is more complicated than some would have us believe. We must take care not to accidentally take frames of mind that we will regret someday if the tables were turned.

 

I am a bit uncomfortable arguing against the Bible in any way (that is how my posts could be perceived) so I'm not going to contribute to that argument anymore. I just want to show that if we are going to accept the one we should at least more deeply consider the other outside of disembodied snippets.

 

One problem with your whole argument is that people say they Islam is not a violent religion it’s about peace, I show its not, then I get well it’s the same as Christianity, no it is not. We’re not told to do forced conversions and to kill every last Jew. We do not do weekly bombings on non-believers. These people would kill us if they had a nuke. Look at the Lockerbie bomber that was just released, he got a freak in parade! He has his own national holiday day. There is no such thing as a peaceful Muslim, when it's a capital offense to have a bible in most middle eastern countries, why are Christians so accepting of this religion that has been a plague on the west? How many Christians do you see doing honor killings? When is the last time you heard of a 16 year old putting C4 in a jacking and blowing up Muslims? The worst mistake the US every made was kicking Sadam out of Iraq. He kept that region under control to a certain extent, other than oil why the hell are we even messing with these backwards countries?

Sweet!!! 1,000th post..................

 

No not really.......I'm sure there are.

 

Do read my posts? I guess not. Me and Steve held this conversation in the above text, please feel free to take the time to read what I wrote in response to Steve F.

So you asked everyone what their religion was? Or were you just stero typing people?

Umm no....Do you not remember the reaction to the 9/11 attacks in the Middle East. People flooded the streets in praise of the attackers. I think there are a few good Muslims out their but there culture as a whole is very violent twords anyone who does not belive in Islam.

Let me post some vidoes of events after the attack so I can remind everyone of all the nice Muslims MC keeps telling us about. I'm they all love America in the middle east right? I mean they treated you so nice right MC?

YouTube - Muslims Celebrating 9/11

YouTube - Palestinians celebrating the fall of the twin towers on 911

Oh wait MC here’s a crowd of close to a million Muslims chanting "Death to America" but this is a peaceful religion I thought. I guess this shoots the whole not many of them are like this out of the water.

YouTube - Iran wants "Death to America"

They don't want to kill all the Jews and take over America do they?

YouTube - Muslims Will Rule America, Britain

Watch the whole thing, it starts out slow..

YouTube - Re: The Moderate Muslim Myth

Here’s a head Saudi Cleric on national TV telling Muslim men it’s ok to beat their wives and how to do it property.

YouTube - Religion of Peace? The Proper Way to Beat Your Wife

Muslims killing or Jailing Christians all over the world....

YouTube - Muslim mobs slaughter 50 Christians over Muhammed cartoons

 

I'm an atheist and I like Islam the least of all the religions. That said, religious freedom is important and they have the right to build their mosque wherever they want.

Maybe if they fly a nice big American flag on their building and their mosque-owned vehicles have "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbons on them they will prove that they're not the bunch of anti-Americans that their critics claim they are.

I still think they're jerks for putting the building there, and wanting to open it on 9/11 as an "outreach." It's a day for memorial, not Islamic apologetics, but apparently the organizers don't see things that way. Did they ever think that maybe, just maybe, plenty of people don't want to have an outreach to them by Muslims on 9/11? The first outreach was enough.

 

This is what is being taught in the majority of mosques across the US and the Middle East. Heck the Cleric wanting to build this mosque at the 9/11 sight believes Israel has no right to exist. His words not mine. Yet you still seem to think the religion is ok?

But the Qur’an says that in the end times they will finally get to kill all of the Jews! Even the trees the Jews hide behind will tell on them.
I mean do you believe beating your wife is ok? Let’s not all sit here and say that most Muslims are not devout followers of the Qur’an, which says it’s ok to beat your wife!

 

And people call me arrogant. You only want your side to be heard if you do not look at what the other side presents. No matter if I think I’m right or wrong, I always read the whole post of the other person and check their links out.

 

I was actually trying to be funny....did you not notice the fact I posted my own quote...lol

 

I just wonder if people think I'm mad when I post this stuff.