Ground zero question

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by rickyjo, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    Is the opening date really 9-11? I can't accept Glen beck as a source ;-)
  2. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I heard that they had set the date to be 9/11 but then backed out....that's from MSNBC.
  3. NorCal

    NorCal Active Member

    No way, are you serious.
  4. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    Was that sarcasm about my source or disbelief over the information?

    I believe that was unbelievably insensitive. I would never condone the government disallowing the mosque but I also think that the builders should have known better than to make the opening date 9/11 (if they did). If anybody can find a good source, all I can find are republican talking heads and conservatives commenting on the huffington post website (lol).
  5. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    They changed the date, it was to be on 9/11 but that has been changed. The main guy on this (building it) is paid by the US government to travel around the Middle East and work on US and Islamic relations. Separation of church and state anyone? If the US was paying a Baptist preacher to go around catholic countries and work on US catholic relations there would be heads rolling. I mean this guy flies around in private jets doing this. What’s that costing us? Any ways, he just said at a press conference that people in the middle east are really behind this project, really, I'm sure they are. Let's not play games with all this and try to be PC. Yes they have a right to build it. But they are doing it to piss people off, and yes its a fact that they set the date for 9/11, once again as an FU to Americans. This cleric building it has ties with extremist groups and is/was funded by them in the past. My question is why not release the information on where the funds are coming from? If they build this mosque, I'm going to start the Nazi church with our saint being Adolf Hitler and build our first church on the grounds of Nuremburg. Oh better yet I'm going to build a statue of the Emperor of Japan and put it up at Pearl Harbor. Does that sound fair? Let's see what happens if we try to build a $150 million mega Christian church in Iran? I have a good idea what would happen, they would kill us or in prison us for life. It's a capital crime to even have a bible in Iran, where support for this project is coming from.
    My whole thing is what’s the deal with the media bowing down to pro Islam movement in the US. Do people have no idea what it’s doing to European counties? Its destroying their way of life. Look at the French, they are scared to death to say anything to their growing Muslim population which is killing the counties welfare system. Holland, Canada, England have all buckled to Islam. Why? These people (Muslims) don’t put up with crap from them, if the government does something they don’t like then they kill people. Did you know in England men and women can no longer swim in the same pools on certain days, and when they do swim they have to wear a special bathing suit? Can you imagine not being able to go to a public pool with your wife? It going to be that way in the US before long. Just look at the force the homosexual movement is using now, they are attacking people in California. A Glad spokes person said their new tactic would that of the Muslim population. If you’re a woman you should be so anti-Islam you should be breathing fire.
    London - British Swimming Pools Imposing Muslim Dress Codes --
    Swimming Pool Center Bars Father and Son for Not Being Muslim « Doctor Bulldog & Ronin
    Islam in Europe: UK: 'Muslim dress only' swimming hours
    Muslim women allowed to swim in private swimming pool in northern Italy : Euro-Islam: News and Analysis on Islam in Europe and North America
  6. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    :confused: HUH :confused:
  7. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Huh what?????
  8. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
  9. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Don't be childish MC. You don’t have to like my opinion but come-on man there is no reason for a mod to attempt to belittle me over it.
  10. james_lankford

    james_lankford New Member

    there is already a mosque with in walking distance of ground zero. Its been there for over 28 years. Its been there since before the first bombing of the world trade tower. And it is a real mosque, not a community/cultural center.

    nobody has ever had any problems with this existing mosque.
    This hatred for the new cultural center is from a bunch of right wing extremeists who don't know the facts.

    even glenn beck has said almost exactly the same thing as this iman,

    "Did we deserve 9/11? No. But were we minding our business? No. Were we in bed with dictators and abandoning our values and principles? Yes. That causes problems! "

    Think Progress » Glenn Beck Attacks Imam Rauf For Understanding Failed Policies Radicalize Muslims, Despite Saying So Himself
    2:44 of the vid

    there is nothing wrong or insensitive about building this new building at "ground zero" anymore than there is anythng wrong or insensitive about building a cathiolic church near an elementary school.
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Hmm. While the Muslims I know here in the U.S. are interested in assimilating, I know a number of Europeans who are pretty alarmed about the prospects for conservative flavors of Islam to impact European liberalism. The people I know are calm enough about most things that it's piqued my interest.

    So the swimming pool thing is very interesting, if true. But are there any articles about it from less biased news sources? I mean, you have to admit that an article about Islam from a site that describes itself as "The Voice of the Orthodox Jewish Community" has to be taken with a grain of salt.

  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Within the same radius from ground zero as this proposed facility, there's also a strip club, so it's disingenuous to call it "hallowed ground". Still, if their plan really was to open this Islamic facility in lower Manhattan on September 11th, they should definitely fire their PR person.

  13. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    You don't know what my opinion is because I did not, and will not reveal it. I couldnt possibly disagree with you anyway because I don't comprehend what your opinion is. Something about Hitler and a pull full of hot French women?

    That I am a mod is irrelevent... well, except for the fact that I will proceed directly to the moderator area, click the weapons system tab and send DegreeInfo's unmanned fighter plane to destroy you, mwahaha!!!!!!
  14. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    It was the blah blah blah and I can clearly see by you sharing technology with Iran what your opinion is.
  15. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    p.s. There is no such thing as a pool full of hot French chicks, they don't exist.
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Building a grand showplace mosque near Ground Zero is a TERRIBLE idea. I totally oppose it.

    Whatever the mosque proponents motives might be (I have no way of knowing), the result will be a tremendous provocation. Even today, the Japanese would never be stupid enough to try to build a Japanese cultural monument within a few hundred yards of the USS Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor. Elsewhere in Honolulu, fine. But not there, not in that place.

    I don't have much problem with these people building their mosque in the US. It could even be constructed in New York City. But putting it at Ground Zero turns it into a jarring monument to what millions of radical Muslims around the world view as their great triumph against the United States and the Western infidels.

    The mosque's creators wouldn't be bringing the peace and reconciliation that they claim that they want. Precisely the opposite, they would be ignoring Americans' feelings by knowingly creating a provocation. They would essentially be pissing on the memories of the thousands of innocent people of all faiths who died in that place on that horrible day.

    That's not to say that all Muslims, or even a majority of them, are radical Islamists. But the fact remains that the attacks of 9-11 were carried out by Islamic terrorists in the name of radical Islam. The fall of the towers was cheered by millions of militant Islamists around the world and represnts their great triumph.

    It's pure sophistry to pretend that there's no connection between 9-11 and Islam.

    Why is it so important to so many people that a huge Islamic edifice be built a block away from Ground Zero? Why is there such fierce opposition to the idea of maybe building it further away, where the symbolism would be less provocative? The state of New York has even offered them land to do it. They refuse to talk to the state.

    Because the symbolism is precisely the point. That's why the mosque has to be in that spot. That's why the project can't be moved to any other site.

    And whatever the mosque builders' true motives for doing this might be, we all know that others are watching closely, that militant Islamists from around the world are going to be flocking to this thing like flies to shit. Whatever the original intention, the militants will make it into radical Islam's victory monument.

    This is something that really shouldn't happen.
  17. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    French women are too hot ^-^, Google Ludivine Sagnier.

    @B4: I guess when it comes to the Muslim pool hour thing, private owners can do whatever they want as long as they are not receiving government funding. I may have to rethink that, but it's my preliminary reaction.

    I think we cannot use Iran in any example in which we compare the actions of our governments, obviously we have a higher standard than Iran in tolerance. I don't believe the fact that the Iranian government is intolerant is relevant to our decision.

    Also, no matter how much one hates this personally I hope everyone has the good sense to see how dangerous stopping a religious institution with no proven malice would be.

    @James: I think building a mega mosque now and maintaining a current pre-9-11 mosque are two different things; however, I would still support it if it wasn't for that proposed opening date. Have they lost their minds? Did they not think this through at all? To propose such a thing was extremely and predictably divisive. Somebody we pay to go preach healing around the world should have seen this one coming.

    @B4 again ^-^:
    It also seems to me that there is no problem trying to mend relationships with Muslims, and who better than somebody who subscribes to the Islamic faith. I see no violation of church and State. Helping to understand our common ground is usually left to a person who is of the "opposing" persuasion that has come to understand our similarities.

    That said, I'm not sure this guy was a good choice if he thought 9/11 would be a great opening date. Big, huge, obvious mistake.

    This is the extent of my position on this issue:
    1. Opening date on 9/11 = Unbelievably Stupid.
    2. Gov't cannot stop it from being built, and shouldn't try.
    3. People that think we should try and legally stop it are making a huge mistake. Your feelings are not enough to stop a religious body from doing something perfectly legal.
  18. james_lankford

    james_lankford New Member

    except that's not what it is

    Park 51: On Building a Mosque Near Ground Zero | BlogHer

    13 stories in downtown nyc is nothing, and its not a grand show place mosque, unless you count basketball courts, swimming pools and jewish events as a symbol of muslim triumph over the US

    and as already stated, there is already a mosque down there; a real mosque, no basketball courts, no swimming pools, just a muslim place of worship that's been there for 28 years

    I don't see any difrference at all
    how many times after 9/11 did you hear about the existing mosque ?
    how many times did FOX news or anyone else report on a mosque being just 4 blocks from the WTC ?
    did the news interview the members ? did the news ask local people how they felt about it being there ?
    did they ask the leaders if they've experienced any resentment or prejudice since 9/11 ?

    no news stories at all

    not unitl now. That to me shows that this is not really an issue. If anyone in NYC or at FOX really cared about this, then we would have heard about this long before now.

    This is nothing more than some made up issue so FOX and republicans can rally behind it and show how "american" they are and how "unamerican" Obama and democrats are.

    Its just a witch hunt, a republican rallying cry.

    Its the FOX/Republican "issue of the month" and will be forgotten about as soon as the next big thing comes up.

    Just like the republicans can't make up their mind about Obams's religion.
    First he was radical christian who's been attending Rev Wright's church and hates America.
    Now he's a secret muslim.

    Well, which one is he ?
    Oh, right, he's both. An american hating secret muslim who's been openly attending a christian church.

    Republicans just make stuff up. They'll keep changing issues and theories until something sticks.

    This is not a symbol of triumph. This is not a mega mosque. Its not even at ground zero. LoL !
  19. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Seeing how all I watch is MSNBC I think that you a Democrat are now the one making stuff up. The first time I heard about this was on MSNBC and they were opposed to it's construction. I'm an independent and I think it is wrong. FYI Fox was not the first to pick this story up and it is a mosque. I bet if this place is built it would be a cold day in hell before a Jew was allowed to rent it. If you like to believe all that you read (their press release) go right ahead. I would also like to meet one of these moderate Muslims everyone keeps talking about. All I can remember were the pictures and footage from across the middle east of the crowds cheering when the news of the planes hitting spread.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2010
  20. rickyjo

    rickyjo New Member

    Perhaps you are right James, but I personally think there is a difference, I'm not sure if it's a huge one, but I think it's real. I'm going to paint a parallel that to me is similar but I want you to tell me if you think it's at all comparable to the situation at hand.

    For example, consider a marijuana dispensary (quite legal in Colorado). Say one already exists and a school is later built a few blocks away, I believe that is not the owners fault and nobody should expect him to move just because somebody else built a school there (or at least a strong case could be made); however, if there is already a school in place and you wish to open a new dispensary perhaps it would be less than prudent and would bother some more conservative parents. I believe that should be at least considered when making the decision of where to open shop. Peoples toes need only be tread on with good reason. Again, I don't really have an opinion on the location, but I get both sides of this, and I really must again state that the opening date of 9/11 was a huge mistake.

    But I get it, I do, I don't want to be part of a witch hunt and so I'm distancing myself somewhat from the argument. I really liked the governor's suggestion of donating federal land to try and satisfy both parties. I just wish that had worked out. Oh well. :)
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