Foreign DL Graduate Degrees

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Filmmaker2Be, Jun 8, 2020.

  1. Filmmaker2Be

    Filmmaker2Be Active Member

    In the "Groupon University" thread your concern about the joint nature of the degrees have already been addressed. This type of setup is NORMAL in Europe. You can't hold other sovereign countries to US standards. They have their own and they're just as legal and legit to them over there as ours are to us over here.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  2. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    I agree that degrees in other countries are just as legitimate as those earned here in the US. However, if you intend to utilize the foreign degree in the US then you’ll have to adhere to evaluators perception of what the degree is equivalent to. While you may very well earn a masters from a European institution, it could be equivalent to a PGD, etc.

    I am not saying anything about the schools as I do not really research institutions outside of the United States since I will never pursue a degree from a foreign institution.
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is normal but they are not accepted in the European Union as masters degrees. I evaluated my Master propio by UK Naric and was denied equivalency because it was a "propio" degree but they stated that it can be accepted by an employer.

    The point here is that for the degree to have some value in the US, you need to get it evaluated by a NACES member service. Most services need transcripts for the evaluation and some refuse to evaluate "validated" degrees. Without an evaluation certificate, the degree becomes just paper that is legal but not useful for places where the degree might have some value. A bit like a state approved degree that is legal but it is not comparable to a RA degree.
    innen_oda likes this.
  4. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The "propio" degree is really a continuing education certificate with credit value. The confusion here is that they use the title "Master" giving the impression of a Masters degree but they are really not degrees in the US context. The Spanish law grants the right to any institution "not only universities" to grant propio degrees. I can set up a company in Spain and start granting "propio" degrees tomorrow and they are legal and protected by the Spanish law but it does not mean that if I bring these degrees to the US, they will hold some value.
    Mac Juli, Johann and JoshD like this.
  5. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Well-Known Member

  6. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Are you referring to this part on the back of the diploma?

    "The present certificate is issued in the frame of the cooperation agreement established between Universidad Isabel I and the Escuela de Negocias Europea de Barcelona"
  7. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    No, in the front of the diploma it states "It was imparted by ENEB and certified by Isabel"

    This confirms that Isabel is not teaching it but just "validating". It is worded very carefully so the degree is not really conferred by Isabel but just certified. A bit like the certificate that the University of Toronto gives you when you evaluate a degree with them, they will give you a nice certificate that just states that they certify that your degree is equivalent to one of their degrees but they are not granting the degree.

    The problem with this wording is that an evaluator will take this certificate just as an evaluation or validation of an ENEB diploma but the issuing organization is not Isabel but ENEB.

    I would like to see any attempt to evaluate this degree by a NACES member organization. My guess is that the evaluation service will contact ENEB and might figure out that this certification is not really a degree.
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Well, the same issue applies to the US. You can get a legal PhD from a religious institution that might be legal and valid in the US but if you bring it to Canada, it is just paper and will not be recognized as a PhD.

    These degrees are legal in the countries that are issued but they lack the international recognition because they are not official.

    The ENEB business is very clever, they just pay Isabel to "certify" their degrees. Isabel does not claim that they issue their degrees but just charging a fee to issue a nice "certification" diploma that can deceive someone if framed on a wall but if you read it careful, it is not really a degree but just a certification.
    innen_oda likes this.
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Another red flag is that the diploma states "1500 hrs equivalent to 60 ECTS". This means that the diploma does not confirm earned ECTS credits but just number of hours that are "equivalent" but not stated as earned.

    The diploma has too many red flags in my opinion, my guess is that most NACES evaluation services might just tell you that is a legal private non RA certificate.

    My propio degree is different, it states that 60 ECTS credits were earned and that the Masters degree was granted by the University and not a third party teaching institution. I did not pay for it 299 and it costs a bit more than that but now I see why this diploma is so cheap, it does not make the university accountable for nothing but it just provides a certificate.
  10. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    It's really not. CEUs don't carry the same level of value as for-credit college courses. In almost all instances, CEUs don't count for any college credit. Totally different things, so there is no reason to associate them. Continuing education units are continuing education units, and college credits are college credits. Besides the whole FEMA and Fredericks Community College deal, the two generally don't meet on any equal level.

    A propio degree is simply a degree offered under the backing and supervision of the school only, while an official degree is evaluated/approved at the governmental and accreditor levels. Both are equally valid--provided the propio degree is from an accredited school--and valued with the exception of PhD entrance and public sector jobs in Spain which usually cannot be done with a propio degree, two things that are of no importance to Americans.

    That doesn't mean exactly what you're portraying it as. If you did set up a school in Spain tomorrow and offered propio degrees they would be unaccredited in Spain and evaluated as such in the U.S. because your school in Spain is not accredited. And with that, an unaccredited degree holder would run into the same issues in Spain as they would anywhere else in the world that accreditation is considered important.

    A propio degree is treated like any other degree in the private sector in Spain, it's not treated like a continuing education certificate because that's not what it is. When we start bringing up a number of other areas of the world that could certainly be a different story and I'm not disputing that, but the United States-Spain connection is what the majority here is concerned with so I think it's best to discuss it mostly in that context.
    Filmmaker2Be likes this.
  11. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I will point out though, that each propio program has to be evaluated individually, so let's avoid blanket conclusions on that end. ENEB-Isabel's program may evaluate out as a Masters degree, while Unnamed Spanish School X may offer a propio degree that evaluates out as a certificate of some kind, each situation is unique. At the moment, we have only heard of one evaluation of an Isabel degree which saw it as a 30-credit Graduate Diploma. Hell, for that price, that would be pretty damn good and worth the effort, and regardless of what the evaluation says the school backing it identifies it a Masters degree and it is accredited, so there's that.
    Filmmaker2Be likes this.
  12. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    I am sorry for my words. I think I am using less appropriate words.

    Real and legal? Yes.
    But full and whole? No.

    I do the ENEB and Isabel 1. I almost finished it.
    Well, I am replying here not to offend anyone. I just want to share all information that I know about this master propio.

    En cuanto a los Títulos Propios el RD 1393/2007, establece: “Disposición adicional undécima. Títulos no oficiales. Las universidades en uso de su autonomía, podrán impartir otras enseñanzas conducentes a la obtención de otros títulos distintos a los expresados en el artículo 3.1. La expedición de estos títulos se realizará del modo que determine la universidad, sin que ni su denominación ni el formato en que se confeccionen los correspondientes títulos puedan inducir a confusión con los títulos oficiales que se establecen en los artículos 9, 10 y 11 del presente real decreto.” De esto deriva que no puede usarse la expresión de Máster Universitario en un Título Propio.

    Translation: Regarding the Pripopis Titles, RD 1393/2007 establishes: “Eleventh additional provision. Unofficial titles. Universities in use of their autonomy, may teach other courses leading to the obtaining of other degrees other than those expressed in article 3.1. The issuance of these degrees will be carried out in the manner determined by the university, without the fact that their name or the format in which the corresponding titles are made may lead to confusion with the official titles established in articles 9, 10 and 11 of this royal decree. ” From this, it derives that the expression of a University Master's Degree cannot be used in a Proprietary Title.

    Este RD fija el baremo en su Anexo I dejando, tan solo, algo de margen a las comunidades en el apartado “III. Otros Méritos”. De esta forma se establece una valoración de 1 punto en el apartado “2.2.1. Por el Certificado-Diploma acreditativo de Estudios Avanzados (Real Decreto 778/1998, de 30 de abril), el Título Oficial de Máster (Real Decreto 56/2005, de 21 de enero), Suficiencia investigadora o cualquier otro título equivalente siempre que no sean requisito para el ingreso en la función pública docente: 1,000 punto“. Quedan claramente excluidos de la formación académica los Títulos Propios.

    Propios are clearly excluded from academic training.

    El título propio, al ser formación permanente, no puntúa como formación de postgrado en unas oposiciones, sino como formación continuada, por lo que su puntuación es menor. No obstante, esto puede variar según la baremación de cada concurso u oposición. Si buscas un máster que puntúe en una oposición, valora una titulación oficial.

    Translation: The Propios title, being permanent training, does not score as postgraduate training in competitions, but as continuous training, so its score is lower. However, this may vary according to the scale of each contest or opposition. If you are looking for a master's degree that scores in an opposition, consider an official qualification.

    All the university, education and government in Spanish agree if Propios is not Master Official or Master Universitaire.

    But, I retract what I said I will put PGdip, I realized it is a bad idea.
    innen_oda likes this.
  13. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    Maybe I will write: Master Propio in xxxx - ENEB & Isabel 1
  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I see your point. Then this will really come down to how each evaluator chooses to interpret the "certified" part. In reality, the arrangement of an outside school teaching the program for a parent school like what ENEB-Isabel has going is pretty normal outside our corner of the globe. It would be unfortunate if people get back bad evaluations just because of how it's worded there.
  15. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is something we've been discussing. Spaniards know that if they want to teach at a University, enter a PhD program, or hold some kind of public sector job in Spain, they need an official degree. The thing here is that none of this matters for Americans.
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Why not just write what is on the diploma? I mean, almost nobody outside this forum thread who lives in the United States knows what propio means, so why find more ways to complicate things for yourself? I'm not trying to be snippy, I just don't understand why you're going about it this way.
  17. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    Sorry, what do you mean by none of that matters for Americans?
  18. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

    I will have four master propios next year. I just a bit confused about how to write all of them.

    I am doing one of this program:

    I think by writing a Master's degree in Astronomy and Astrophysics just made me look "over-qualified" combine with the others. I wanted to tell if I have this knowledge, but I won't make me look like an expert in this field.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  19. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Americans living and working in America aren't living and working in Spain. So the concerns of not being able to enter a Spanish PhD program or secure a Spanish public sector job with a propio degree are for Spaniards to worry about.
    Filmmaker2Be likes this.
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    You're going to make more trouble for yourself trying to word your diploma titles differently than how they're written on the actual diplomas. You're psyching yourself out. Stick to what's on the paper.

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