Federal role in degree approvals

not all regional accreditations the same

There are differences in the opinions of the RA's from one region to the next. They serve a pupose and have their role. Bottom line, I don't want my tax dollars paying for these high priced accreditations when a better more economic system could be put in place that would help rid this country of substandard institutions and diploma mills.

What is so great about the RA's that some of you keep defending. I don't care if they are there or not. But there needs to be oversight that is fair and equal across all states in the USA. And... state governments should not have to put up a list of what schools are credible and which are not for employment purposes. It is absolutely absurd this has to happen. No school of higher learning operating in this country (USA) should be providing a substandard education that cannot be used to better one's self. This would also help those learners who are not aware of such substandard schools,getting caught in the trap so to speak and waste their hard earned dollars. Not every one seeking a degree from online schools know or understand what "accreditation" means. There are many substandard universities that are accredited by agencies that are self-policed. A few years ago, I could not tell you if a school was legit or not with all of the accreditation regions, names, etc. Who knows?

If a private college or university wants RA accreditation fine. Let their student body pay for it. I oppose state/public schools using millions and millions of dollars spent on the RA accreditation when it is not a mandate by the US DOE and there could be better ways to do this.

 

to billdayson

go to the DOE site. Here is table of contents on accreditation from the DOE. ???DOE has nothing to do with accreditation???

Table of Contents

1. Overview of Accreditation

2. Accreditation in the U.S.

3. National Recognition of Accrediting Agencies by the U.S. Secretary of Education

4. Nationally Recognized Accrediting Agencies

5. Regional Institutional Accrediting Agencies

6. National Institutional and Specialized Accrediting Bodies

7. Accrediting Agencies Recognized for their Preaccreditation Categories

8. Accrediting Agencies Recognized for Title IV Purposes

9. Part 602 - Secretary's Recognition of Accrediting Agencies

Subpart A - General

Subpart B -- The Criteria for Recognition

Subpart C - The Recognition Process

Subpart D - Limitation, Suspension, or Termination of Recognition

Subpart E -Department Responsibilities


10. National Recognition of State Approval Agencies by the U.S. Secretary of Education

Criteria for the Recognition of State Agencies for Vocational Education
• State Agencies Recognized for the Approval of Public Postsecondary Vocational Education


Criteria and Procedures for Recognition of State Agencies for Nurse Education
• State Agencies and Accrediting Bodies Recognized for the Approval of Nurse Education





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I disagree that I was arguing what you claim that I was arguing. It appeared to me that you had totally ignored the credentialling responsibility that universities have. This is an extremely important aspect of their existance. It is this issue that degree mills ignore. It is the main difference between general "book" learning and participating in an academically rigorous program. It is an important consideration that separates degree mills from real schools. It is what makes a real degree different from a degree mill or just studying books from the local public library.

 

I still say look at the UK and Australian models for examples of accreditation that is basically centralized and still provides for innovation and differences among universities.

And all universities recognize each other, and there is no question, domestic or international, as to whether the degrees from any particular institution are recognized - they all are!

 

RA's governing themselves

"It is silly to claim that RA agencies have too much power. They are non-profit organizations of schools. The schools are the members and run their own accreditation." (from some else's posting)

so do the other schools who are accredited by, i.e., the WAUC, and schools grouping themselves together and creating their own accreditation body. Isn't this the same thing the RA's have done? So, what is the point? They empower themselves. And, there was an accrediting agency prior to CHEA being formed. The group involved disolved the agency they had because of some kind of conflict with the government. I will research back through the material and post the site for all to read. It is interesting. There was some kind of turf battle. I can't recall specifics but will look them up.

I would also like to add that this is a wonderful forum. It is not only giving individuals an opportunity to voice opinions but to get into an educational discussion. I am learning from reading the replies and the postings.

 

Re: RA's governing themselves

It is not the same thing because WAUC is a scam that was created by a degree mill operator, Maxine Asher. It is run by this single degree mill operator as a for-profit-organization even though it claims non-profit status. It charges other degree mills to claim that they too are accredited by WAUC. WAUC approves accreditation without requiring any visits or apparently any analysis of the institutions being accredited. It was proven to be a scam through the legal process when they were sued by a school (William Howard Taft University) that had purchased bogus accreditation from them.

The point is that the main accreditation process within the USA, Regional Accreditation, ensures and assures that the universities having RA are financially sound institutions that use proper academic rigor when credentialling graduates. WAUC does no such thing.

 

Re: RA's governing themselves

Biker

It is quite interesting how strong your opinions are without even basic information on the topic. As Bill mentioned above there is NO similiarity between WAUC and RA associations. Do the research. Examine how things really intereact and THEN form opinions IF appropriate.

 

research

I have researched the WAUC as well as the RA's. The accrediting processes that the WAUC post do meet the USDoE's criteria. The only thing the WAUC has that I think is questionable is the visits to the institutions. I have read all about the scam and Maxine Asher. Despite some poor choices, I believe she has cleaned up her act after the William Taft ordeal. There are several universities that provide sound education methods accredited with the WAUC. I must admit though, not all are excellent schools. Individuals do change.

Another point, if all post secondary institutions of higher learning in this country had to be licensed and educational programs approved by each state they operate in, then we would not be having these discussions or the problems. I think California has the right stuff going in the direction I hope the nation goes in, the states approval and licensing of all private post secondary education institution. If it is approved by the state of California, then you know the institution is not a diploma mill.

I have been conducting my own research and may publish the findings. I have been applying to many online universities to work on a doctorate degree in a chosen field. I am sending in transcripts from previous degrees, work history, previous college credits for courses taken in specialty areas not for degree purposes. I am getting lots of information from all of these universities. Some are bogus and diploma mills at face value, others substandard and some that provide standard methods of education. I am matching the content of the courses and requirements to RA accredited universities with similar degrees. I am looking at the cost, the student resources, the professors, course descriptions, degree requirements, and eduational format.

Two institutions that have been noted as questionable in this area are Madison University in Gulfort Ms and Southern California University for Professional Studies. I have found both of these institutions to have high quality standards in the delivery of their programs. I even tried to bargin for additional credits and transfers of credits and neither would accept them towards the completion of the degree I applied for. Both schools required my master level transcripts and verification of my work experience. So, I think folks should learn the facts before judging.

A couple of institutions I found to be very questionable[being diploma mills or substandard] are Columbus University in MS and Century University in New Mexico. Neither required any verification of anything.

So, I do my research before forming opinions. And my opinions do evolve as I continue to learn.

I do appreciate open and honest discussions. I do not take differences of opinions personal. It would be a pitiful world if we all agreed on the same things.

 

Biker

WAUC has been proven a total fraud in a court of law. Yet you mention it as comparable to RA? You mention Madison as high standard? I am sorry, but seriously, do much more research first before forming ANY opinions in this field.

 

accreditation

Bill,

I understand what you are saying about the RA's. However, the RA's should not be the "end all" of the government agencies having the opinion or policy if an institution is not accredited by one of the RA's then the school is providing questionable educational methods. There are many universities out there that provide a sound education that choose not to be accredited by the RA's because of the cost or not interested in federal student aid or government programs. California has a sound system going with the Approval process and oversight of Private Post Secondary Universities. I can't recall the exact name of the agency. If all states would follow suit, then we would be better off.

Regards

Biker

 

Dave

Have you researched any of the universities? Or are you basing opinion on others' information. I am basing my opinion on information I have received directly from the institutions. Madison is definitely not a diploma mill and does offer a good program in the management areas. I am not referring to psychology or related fields that impact on mental or physical health. Even the list posted by Oregon states that it does not know if Madison provides the level of education that Oregon expects. I did not say it was an outstanding school but it is not substandard either.

I do appreciate your feedback and opinions. Don't take mine personally. It is just my opinions as you have yours. I am doing quite well in my career with my BA and MA from universities with RA accreditation. I am keeping an open mind. Just because I am a graduate of RA accredited universities does not mean that I am going to stomp on or bad mouth other universities and individuals who get thier degrees from not RA accredited or unaccredited institutions that provide standard education to its learners.

Respectfully

Biker7

 

Here is my problem with the whole RA collusive agreement. This could actually go into a lot of threads because this argument seems to be where they all wind up anyway.

If the answer is simply RA, not DETC or ACICS, or others, then you have eliminated competition from the marketplace. I think that competition is the single element that makes our society strong. If the sis regionals had not entered into a collusive agreement then they could compete, maybe distance education will make them more competitive, because there collusion was based upon a geographic monopoly, and DL removed that monopolistic barrier.

If the answer is just and simply always RA, then I think we’ll miss the opportunity to improve the system.

Also, as for an earlier question of if not accepting DETC credits in transfer was a conspiracy then why isn’t accepting some RA credits in transfer, my answer is that if the credit isn’t accepted because the course does not meet the incoming requirements, then that is a fine reason. Is it isn’t accepted simply BECAUSE IT IS DETC, with no evaluation, then that is collusion.

Bubba

 

Bubba:

I agree with you. I keep hearing or reading other's opinions about certain universities. When, in fact, the people making accusations that a "university" is a diploma mill or substandard has not contacted the universities and took the time to research the school and the educational standards. Case in point, Madison University. In my research of online schools, this university provides an adequate educational program for the degrees it is granting. It is not a high standard school but not substandard either. And it is certainly not a diploma mill. I actually haggled with the admissions department to get a couple of courses transferred, provided the objectives and materials of the course and it was denied.

I am not that impressed with the "credible university" guru, John Bear. He is capitalizing on the nation's problem with diploma mills and probably making a nice income on selling his books about all of the substandard schools. My question is has he been through each and every one of the schools he puts on his black ball list? Certainly there are diploma mills and substandard schools of higher education. No doubt there. As long as he continues to sensationalize the subject he will sell books and keep his name in the academic arena. If the Federal Government would get the balls to pass legislation for all states to license and approve all post-secondary schools, then John Bear and the others who continually author these books would not have anything to write about. I am writing many in congress about the need for change and not keep the status quo. The RA's should not be the 'be all end all' of who's who in universities. If a university does not want accreditation or can't afford it, then most of the folks in academia become suspicious and make allegations, "they are a substandard school or that's a diploma mill". This results in the government entities and some in business to discredit those degrees that are earned legitimately. Who sets what courses and the number of courses one has to take to earn a degree? It should be quality and not quantity. And quality is determined by what the learner comes out of the learning experience with.

Despite what the US DOE says that it does not accredit colleges and universities, I beg the differ. Schools are strong armed into accreditation by one of their "recognized" accrediting agencies. If the US DOE assumes the role of recognizing and not recognizing accreditation agencies, then in fact they are the top of the chain in the accreditation agency organization. "A rose by another name is still a rose" If a school is not accredited by one of the US DOE recognized agencies, then the schools are substandard and not worthy of federal programs. Why is the US DOE outsourcing its' responsibility to ensure that all schools who wish to participate in federal programs to the RA's, DETC, etc. That goes for any accreditation agency, not just the RA's. It is not that I am down on the RA's specifically. I have the opinion that the states should be responsible for ensuring that all colleges and universities operating within their borders meet a minimal standard that is acceptable across all states. I am not saying that all schools would have the same reputation. There are the Ivy League schools and the not so WOW WEE schools.

 

jumping on the band wagon with the RA

The state of North Carolina has a policy in place now that only degrees from colleges and universities recognized by accrediting agencies recognized by the US Deparment of Education are accepted for employment with the NC state government. This hands the RA and CHEA another jewel for their crowns. The emphasis is on the prolifiration of online degrees and that colleges and universities that are not accredited by an agency recognized by the US DoE provides substandard education. This discredits all colleges and universities operating with legitimate license and approval of their respective state.

This is another reason that I will continue to lobby for federal intervention that sets forth minimal standards for a quality education for all states and that each state licenses and approves every single postsecondary institution of higher learning operating in their state. This will put an end to the substandard schools and diploma mills. If an institution is offering degrees in a state and is not licensed by the state, then any one would know that it is an illegal operation. Thus the state would take legal action and convict the owners/operators. It is as simple as that.

 

Bikerseven, you are wrong minded in most of the statements you make, especially those generally insulting and totally uninformed statements made trying to discredit the esteemed John Bear. It is especially cowardly (IMHO) to try and discredit John Bear while you hide behind a silly alias, Bikerseven.

You make apologies for degree mills while ignoring the fact that a very important function of university is credentialling. By that I mean ensuring that before anyone gets a degree they have proven via processes involving academic rigor, that they have learned the necessary topics that are standard. You ignore the fact that accreditation is the way that this is in ensured so that it can be trusted by the general public and potential employers.

I suggest that you take your insults and feeble attempts at discrediting great men elsewhere. If you want to preach advantages of degree mills you are free to do it here, just don't get personal.

 

Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

Employers do have a right to set minimum education standards for their employees; unfortunately these stipulations for US DOE recognition ignore State Approval. Why? Partly because there is no interstate standard. Why not? Because that would interfere with the accreditation system.

I agree with you that the US should take positive steps in establishing an interstate standard for postsecondary education. It is the States who are required to regulate their jurisdictions and yet they are patently ignored at the national level when they do. This is double talk at the Federal level who knows very well their role in education. I believe the DOE is a captured agency, run by those who support the existing education industry as it stands. It has chosen to outsource regulation by recognizing certain accreditors (still calling it all voluntary) and it grants varying levels of funding authority (some given Title IV, some not) which steers the majority of business and funds to membership institutions which is perceived by many as the demarcation of quality.

This could all be so much more efficient and simplified.

 

Hi Bill

My guess is both Bubba and Biker are former members of the closed Collegehints site that are getting their jollies here now. James and his side kick come to mind.

They get so MUCH information wrong that it is laughable. Comparing WAUC to RA?! Madison legitimate?! What is it we use to hear with this kind of garbage?

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

They are just seeing how far they can push their poorly thought out anti-accreditation agenda, but they do make me laugh!

 

Re: research

This thread makes me dizzy. We have statements like this:

...followed by statements like this:

Amazing.

 

Re: research

Perhaps you would like to explain how WAUC meets this criterion:

602.13 Acceptance of the agency by others.

The agency must demonstrate that its standards, policies, procedures, and decisions to grant or deny accreditation are widely accepted in the United States by--

(a) Educators and educational institutions; and

(b) Licensing bodies, practitioners, and employers in the professional or vocational fields for which the educational institutions or programs within the agency's jurisdiction prepare their students.

(Authority: 20 U.S.C. 1099b)

 

Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

I agree with much you have written but, until things change, they are the way that they are. The way that they are is that state approval is a joke in many states. State approval is a sham in California as long as the likes of PWU can truthfully claim to be state approved. The higher education system in the USA is based on RA, with a miniscual portion being accredited by DETC. Unaccredited equates to degree mill 99.9% of the time and this percentage seems to be growing as the perpetually unaccredited but serious schools are now choosing accreditation to improve the utility of their degrees and to make their degrees legal in all states.