Federal role in degree approvals

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Alan Contreras, Aug 25, 2004.

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  1. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

    Lack of recognition of state approval is supposed to be a problem.

    It's suggested that the way to improve acceptance is enforcing a single government-mandated national standard to replace the 50 state standards.

    But wouldn't that be something very similar to regional accreditation, except with all possibility of opting out or doing anything different eliminated?

    If the original problem was the lack of acceptance of non-accredited schools, then how would making such schools illegal be a solution?

    It doesn't make sense to me.
     
  2. BubbaGump

    BubbaGump New Member

    To DaveHayden

    First, thanks for associating me with bikerseven, you did that not me.

    Second, you say that I get so MUCH wrong, look at my posts and tell me exactly what that is in MY POSTS?

    Third, thanks for committing the fallacy of Personal Attack, something that my comments on this board do not merit.

    BUBBA
     
  3. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

    I hear you. I wonder if you could forward your list of States where approval is a joke (Wyoming comes to mind) recognizing that joke and sham are subjective terms, hard to define and measure. I don't think Oregon considers its approval a joke, nor does California, nor Connecticut, VA, NY, NJ, etc. or any of the States who approve schools rather than just license them. Anyway, it would be useful to see what you're talking about.
     
  4. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

    Hi Bill, The problem is one of interstate use of State Approved degrees. A DOE standard for State Approval would put the kabosh on the argument that the standards vary. A school could still opt for any level of accreditation as a further mark of distinction. As long as accreditation is not mandatory, leveling the field for what is mandatory seems to me to be a good thing. To me, it would raise the bar for some States and would force a number of schools to raise their standards while making it easier for States to evaluate other State Approved degrees.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2004
  5. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

    Hi, Rod. I won't argue with that. I agree that something like CA-approval should be the national minimum. I don't have any objection to individual states being more demanding than that, if they want to be.

    But I'm not sure that a national approval standard would solve the problem of state-approved degrees not being recognized.

    State-approval is either going to be RA-equivalent or else it isn't. If it isn't, then it's not going to be universally recognized. If it is, then that would eliminate all of the schools that don't meet the standard, which compounds the original problem. Instead of non-accredited schools just getting dissed, they wouldn't even be possible.
     
  6. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    BIll

    First of all, I am not insulting John Bear. But I get tired of everyone who is against online education saying, "John Bear" "John Bear". I will say that he has done a great deal of good. However, diploma mills are still around and all of the books written have not stopped them. It is time to for action and not books. If one is going to make complaints, then make suggestions on how to resolve a problem that will level the playing field. My apologies to Dr. Bear if I offended him. I am sure he is mature enough not to take things personally. It is not my intention.

    Secondly, I do not know BubbaGump and have never been in any group other than this one. It appears to me that you are the one with the closed mind. I digress, I will not get personal with you.

    -----I have nothing against RA's but I do have my opinion that the RA's should not be the answer to our nation's education system.--

    Thirdly, I have never implied or stated that the WAUC's standards are the same as the RA's. But its' list of standards minimally meet the DOE requirements.

    I would like to ask you this. How do you know that Madison University is a diploma mill? What are your specifics? Don't base your answer on other's work or research. You convince me since I am so wrong with all of my information.

    I am not bawhaa hah ahahaha and not promoting diploma mills. You need to get your facts straight. It is my interest to rid this nation of these illegal practices in education. Both of my degrees are from universities in NC that are RA accredited. So I have no point to prove in regards to my educational creditentials in regards to receiving a degree from an unaccredited or non-RA school. My argument is for those schools that can't afford the millions of dollars in accreditation or that don't want to be involved in federal aid programs due to the overhead and redtape involved in such programs. I work for the government, so I know.

    I have had contact with the Department of Education of Wyoming in regards to their license and approval standards for postsecondary schools. The only way operations get around the state's approval and licensing procress is claiming themselves to be a church/religious affiliated school, i.e. HU. The gentleman I had contact with was not supportive of HU at all and stated that it was no longer legally operating in the state of Wyoming. By the way, California BPPVE will let you know pretty quick that Pacifica U, is not approved by that department.

    You must be affiliated with or extremely sympathetic to the RA's. Again, I am not anti-RA. They should have the right to accredit any institution that wants that accreditation. Do you know how much it cost an university to go through the RA accreditation? If you were a small or medium size school that offered a bonofied education but did not have the financial backing to pursue this accreditation, shouldn't you have the same opportunity to assist others in learning and shouldn't individuals who want to attend this school be given the same respect?

    And Bill, at least I am sparking debate in this issue, not just by complaining, but attempting to support a more evenly and equitable manner in which all legitimate schools have a level playing field. all legitimate schools

    Respectfully

    Biker7
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2004
  7. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    Rod Kirkland

    You said in a couple of paragraphs what I have been attempting to state myself. Leveling the playing field and accreditation an option not mandatory. Accreditation for certain degree programs are necessary, i.e., Medical, PT, OT, pharmacy programs and the like.

    I hope Bill doesn't try to associate you with me since I am agreeing with your statement/opinion. Wouldn't want for you to be associated with my ignorance.

    Regards
     
  8. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jumping on the band wagon with the RA

    To me, the issue revolves around consistent mandatory minimums in order to define legitimate postsecondary education. I agree, recognition will always be the prerogative of the employer. Still, a consistent standard would provide a beneficial leveling function (raising the bar in many cases) and would help eliminate those entities masquerading as schools.
     
  9. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Rod Kirkland

    I think you've made some very good points. Good luck with your lobbying effort, I'm not holding my breath though. It would seem that the last thing the DOE wants to do is establish an interstate standard that ties State Approval back to the DOE. (what would the accreditors think? AGGGGHHHHH!!!)
     
  10. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    Rod Kirkland

    Thanks for your kind words. All I am doing is voicing my concerns and my opinions of what needs to be done.

    I have read many articles about the US DoE and the Accreditation Agencies. The USDoE does not want to set the standards for educational institutions but wants to pull the strings. It is the top of the accreditation chain by virtue of its' approval or recognition of accrediting agencies. When the DoE was asked specific questions regarding standardizing minimal standards that would be applicable across all states, you would think some one was holding a gun on them. The comments made were vague and quickly redirected to some other topic.

    Regards
     
  11. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: BIll

    Biker

    Did you mean to address that post to me instead of Bill? :D

    You still don't get it on SO many levels. DR. Bear has done nothing but promote distance learning. Without his books a huge portion of DL graduates would never have known that DL exists. Of course degree mills still exist! They ALWAYS will! Your statement is like blaming the FBI for Bank Robbers. Dang it! Banks STILL get robbed! How could ANY Author eliminate degree mills? :D

    Actually your statements show you have almost no understanding of the U.S. accreditation system or State approval system and lack there of. Despite this, you blame RA associations for most of the ills of the system.

    As to WAUC, they have no standards! You pay your money and you are magically accredited. This was proven when one of their accredited schools sued them for a total lack of standards or substance. One guess who won. :)

    As to Madison, I'll leave you to actually investigate it thoroughly. Any good fraud can put on a show that creates an appearance of legitimacy. That doesn't make it is legitimate. It is by examining the fraud from other angles you get the additional info that will complete the picture. It is pretty clear you haven't done that at this point. You know, on second thought, I think you should just enroll. Lets see how valuable that diploma is after graduation. :D

    Bwaha ha ha ha is the reaction from certain Dr Levicoff. Better just to forget it.

    The Wyoming Dept. of Education openly admits their limited standards in no suggests a school that passes them is rigorous or anything close to an accredited school. The fact that Wyoming has been a haven for degree mills reinforces this. California is home of PWU which was shown to coach its students on how to cheat. Additionally the infamous degree mill K-W actually resides in CA while it has moved from state to State. Of course, it now supposedly resides in that bastion of legitimacy Wyoming! Where are there ACTUAL offices? You got it CA!

    Am I pro RA? Sure. I believe in minimum standards and schools that are not financially shakey. From what I have seen schools that develop reasonable standards move to accreditation without problem. Simply look at WGU, AMU, anf the defunct USOU. If that isn't enough, DETC and the other small accreditors create a safety net for smaller schools like CSU, CCU, and Concord. I personally also believe unaccredited schools perform an important function on several levels. I would never recommend one, but at the same time am glad our Country allows the variety and diversity it does.

    The current system seems to work pretty damn good. Can we expect that system to change and evolve? Yes. Is there room for critizism and innovation? Certainly. Is it logical to be grossly critical without even a basic understanding of fundemental issues? No!
     
  12. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    Re: Re: BIll


    Dave is correct. Here is a break down.


    Madison gives 60 credits for "life experience" on the general education courses like English , Math, Sciences, etc.

    Upper level course work on a Bachelors gives 6 credits a class at 8 classes and a 12 credit Bachelors Final Paper.

    So the program is :

    60 credits life experience = 60
    6 credits x 8 classes + 48
    12 credits x 1 paper + 12
    ----------
    120 credits


    I don't see how you can give 60 credits for life experience and 12 credits for a term paper and be legit.

    And the WAUC (who is unrecognized) accredits this practice?
     
  13. BubbaGump

    BubbaGump New Member

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040915/ap_on_re_us/grading_higher

    Talk about timely: "U.S. Flunks Higher Education Affordability "
     
  14. BubbaGump

    BubbaGump New Member

  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: BIll

    In a word, no, I do not believe that there is such a thing as you propose. If a school is not financially able to afford accreditation then it is not a viable school.

    Here's reality. Accreditation is the is how the serious schools and society protect themself against substandard schools. The issue of accreditation is standard credentials that can be trusted, not learning.
     
  16. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Rod Kirkland

    I think a big part of the problem is that many look to the US DOE for central leadership and consider them to be a central ministry. The perception being if schools are not recognized by DOE they are automatically fraudulent.

    I think few people understand State Approval and where it fits in the overall scheme. I believe most don't understand that SA is the only MANDATORY postsecondary education quality check in the U.S. and it is performed at the State level. Approval is a function with a higher purpose than licensing but still part of the licensing process. In some States like CA, out-of-state accredited schools operating within the State must be also approved. Then again, indigenous schools don't need to be approved if they are already accredited. Approval and DOE recognized accreditation differ in that:

    1. Approval is a mandatory quality certification in order to operate legally. (some States only license, with no quality certification, leaving that to the accreditors)
    2. The government organization granting approval has regulatory powers over the approved institutions.
    3. Accreditation is considered a higher level quality function and an interstate standard but not a mandatory process.
    4. Most postsecondary schools are accredited.
    5. Most approved schools are legitimate.
    6. Many approved schools become accredited in time.
    7. Accredited degrees have higher utility and are mandatory for some fields. There are no cases where an approved degree is required over an accredited degree; however degree relevancy is extremely important and in such cases, an approved degree may be more relevant.
    8. Approved degrees are in many cases a viable alternative within the limitations of educational recognition policies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2004
  17. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    Just for you Dave...

    You just don't get my point Dave (and Bill too). I have nothing against the RA's at all. They do a good thing for institutions meeting standards.

    (By the way, I like heated debates. This is a great forum. Don't you guys think? And I do not intend any comments in my postings to be personal or demeaning. Respect for all.)

    Did you know that the application fee for accreditation with one of the RA's is $10K and to become a candidate is another $2,500?

    That does not include the dues and other fees.

    However, to get back on topic. I am not saying to end the accreditation agencies, i.e., RA's. I am saying that states should be required to license and approve all postsecondary education institutions operating within their respective borders - bottom line. Level the playing field. And to comment on your point about the licensure and approval process of universities in Wyoming, if there were federal minimal standards, this would not be a problem would it Bill????? The standards of approved schools should have no difficulty from one state to another by virtue that all have to provide an established minimal standard of education. Additional accreditations for participation in government programs and the like should continue to be optional. But schools not wanting to participate in such programs should not be penalized for that.
     
  18. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Just for you Dave...

    Why not? What is wrong with separating degree mills from real schools? I don't understand your comment that seems to think that $13,000 is a lot of money? That is peanuts for a school that is financially viable, especially when compared with the advantage of being accredited.
     
  19. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    The $13K is only the application fee. Not the fees and dues for being accredited. Dues assessments for members and candidate institutions are based on the following formula:

    Dues = Fixed Cost + Full-Time Enrollment Equivalent Variable + Educational & Expenditure Variable. If an institutions E&G total does not exceed $4 million, then that institution's dues amount includes only the fixed cost amount added to the Full-Time enrollment equivalent variable amount.

    This is directly from one of the RA's. If accreditation was as cheap as $13K, then I would agree whole heartedly with you that all schools who are viable could afford that. The actual final cost is in the millions of dollars. A lot of our state tax monies go for this accreditation dues and fees.

    And thank you for being kinder with your response.

    Regards

    Robert
     
  20. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    I forgot to add in my last posting...

    I am definitely 100% in favor of not having diploma mills operating in the USA. It does nothing but hurt our legitimate institutions of higher education.

    I see you are located in California. Could you give me any information on Southern California University for Professional Studies? I would appreciate any information. I know that Oregon accepts degrees from this university. However, I would like to get additional information.
     

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