Federal role in degree approvals

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Alan Contreras, Aug 25, 2004.

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  1. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    I'd like to move the discussion of non-KWU issues out of that thread.

    The question of what is the proper federal role in overseeing degrees is very important. During my senate testimony last May I was asked what this role should be. I responded by recommending that the feds should focus on two things:

    1. Setting minimum standards for all degrees used as credentials in federal employment. In my view this should include setting minimum standards for federal use of degrees issued by unaccredited schools, but Congress does not want to do this, in part because it would require staffing that does not currently exist and in part because it would necessitate the evaluation of degrees issued by unaccredited religious schools, which the feds flee with sweat streaming from every pore.

    Also, there are significant long-term consequences if the Dept of Education has its own college evaluation role in-house. Why, for example, would there be a need to link Title IV funding to accreditation if the Dept of Ed does its own evaluations? Most of the non-regional accreditors would die in a week if their members did not need them for financial aid access.

    The whole concept of genteel accreditors "policing" their member schools, already an amiable fiction, would become risible.

    Thus there is something for both sides of the political aisle to hate in the idea of federal evaluation of unaccredited schools.

    2. Setting standards for the use in the U.S. of degrees issued under the authority of foreign countries. This is an obvious role for the federal government, and would help screen out the low-end operators without having fifty different state standards for foreign degree use.

    Of course, it would mean that qualitative evaluations would get tangled up in the needs of the state and defense apparatus-we would see false favorable evaluations and false unfavorable evaluations forced onto the education agencies in order to advance the crude political needs of whichever administration was in power.


    I recommended against the feds setting minimum standards for the validity of degrees issued inside the U.S. (except for federal employment) because I surmise that any such standards would be abysmally low. In my experience the political process almost always leads to the triumph of expedience over excellence. In the U.S. there is little political constituency for academic quality outside of certain sciences whose work has military or health applications.

    The fact that tens of thousands of people all over the country use false or substandard degrees every day, with the formal or unstated approval of their supervisors, means that the degree as a credential has come to mean little outside certain professions and colleges.
     
  2. David Boyd

    David Boyd New Member

    I believe the reputations of colleges and universities in the United States would benefit from Federal minimum standards which would preempt all state laws in this area. I rarely support Federal regulation but the states have proven that they can’t or are unwilling to address the issues. It would also eliminate the political corruption in states like Illinois.

    The minimum standards would not constitute accreditation but merely legal permission to operate. Adopting the California standards with an enforcement budget would be a good start.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    What I would suggest

    (I'm respecting Alan's request to move this topic over here.)

    As the federal government's HR department, I can certainly understand it if OPM (or whomever) publishes a list of acceptable qualifications, foreign and domestic, for use in the military and federal civil service. If they did, and other organizations chose to use that list in making decisions, that would be their prerogative.

    Personally, though, I don't see how the system is broken. If someone claims he has a particular credential, and its quality is important to you, it's up to you to check whether it's regionally accredited or has been competently evaluated as the equivalent. If you can't be bothered to do that, how can you justify asking the rest of us to live under some federalized system?

    -=Steve=-
     
  4. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Those are good points. My line of thinking is that the US DOE does not need to do evaluations, just set minimum standards for what can be considered a degree. While I understand your point about the fear of setting standards too low, I can only surmise that it would raise the bar for many States, like Wyoming among others. And if the Fed made it a crime to sell bogus unlicensed "degrees", I tend to think that might keep the e-commerce raiders at bay. It worked for cherry bombs...dammit.

    If the Fed can regulate highway safety issues like taillights, interstate road design, and the shape of a stopsign, the establishment of a few definitions regarding an interstate legal degree shouldn't be that onerous. If they can't do that, maybe they should just remove the language about accreditation being voluntary. However, as you said, maybe degrees as a credential outside of a few professions means little.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2004
  5. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    "I recommended against the feds setting minimum standards for the validity of degrees issued inside the U.S. (except for federal employment) because I surmise that any such standards would be abysmally low."

    Interesting point Alan. However the federal government does not accept any unaccredited degrees nor state approved degrees. I'm not sure of your commentary but currently the standards I am held to are higher than the one's you are setting for Oregon. I would accept that the standards are lacking in enforcement.

    I also agree that our standards should be for us. With the current mangement agenda to outsource 845,000 federal jobs I do not think it likely that a push would be successful to have another federal entity grow.

    But, as a recommendation this process could be outsourced to a business or academic entity. For example, the accreditors could compete for a contract to provide the oversight you seek within federal guidance. Or, a body of academe could receive a grant to accomplish the oversight. I can envison multiple ways that the federal government can provide oversight without creating another bureaucracy.
     
  6. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    federal accreditation of degree granting universities

    I have been reading and researching accreditation policies, regulations, agencies, etc, etc, etc... In my opininion, the RA's should not be the only accrediting agencies with such clout. What is accreditation when it comes down to it?

    I would like to see the Feds pass a law that requires each state to license or approve every university operating within its' borders. The monies that each state spends on the RA's for state operated colleges and universities (millions of dollars) could be used towards the process. If Duke U or UNC - Chapel Hill were to decide they did not want to have accreditation, would these schools be any less credible? I think not. All post-secondary schools, both public and private, should have to be licensed and approved by the individual state they operate in. This would weed out the diploma mills or the substandard schools. My opinion also is in favor of minimum standards to be established by the federal government that could be applied equally across all states. This would increase competition and hopefully would lower the cost of getting an education. I have been researching privately owned and public universities offering doctorates in Health Care Administration. There are definitely credible private online schools providing excellent doctorate degrees in this area at a reasonable cost that are not accredited by a RA agency. The programs I have compared are similar in nature between the legitimate schools (private and public).

    I can't afford most of these "traditional" universities' tuitions. If were to take a loan, I would be paying the rest of my life. I am 45 years old and I don't want to have a student loan lauding over my head. I want to earn my degree, not buy it. There is a difference.

    I am supportive of the DETC branching out to accredit online universities to grant doctorate degrees.

    I would also like to add, that private universities within the states could be charged a higher fee for accreditation than state operated schools. This would help with the cost of staffing the Depts of Ed in each state.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2004
  7. JNelson467

    JNelson467 New Member

    Boy..this topic gets hotter and hotter by the minute.

    I agree with bikerseven2003 in regards to each State being held to ensure that any and all schools meet the state's requirements and be licensed to operate as a post secondary school or university etc. Any and all degree granting schools not licensed or approved by the state should convict and punish those found doing so to the highest extent of the law.

    The problem is everyone is seeking to place RA as pretty much the only form of accreditation.. It takes alot of money for small schools with low tuitions to apply and adapt to the requirements..

    We'll be making education like sam Walton did Wal-mart.. Putting the less financially and popular schools in a defeated situation. sames as all of our former small businesses.

    By the way... UOP is the Wal-Mart of the educational system. There everywhere... Even next door to my hotel I manage.

    State Approved = legitimate / no State Approval = Degree Mill

    Accreditation = Upper class / example:
    Lexus/ reg. Accredited Toyota.. OK...Kia / State Approved

    We are a materialistic society and it shows.
     
  8. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    I understand the attempt at painting a clearer understanding through analogy, but this one doesn't work.

    Both Lexus and Kia must comply with a variety of identical safety and other federal standards. While a Lexus clearly has superior QA/QC processes and better bells and whistles, a purchase of either assures the buyer of compliance with certain common standards. This is the core of the issue. The legitimately accredited and the state approved do NOT equally comply with any set of common standards or consumer protections.
     
  9. adamsmith

    adamsmith member

    I still don't understand the rationale of the US accreditation system vis-a vis the federal government.

    If RA is the only way to be legitimately accredited in the States and the RA bodies must be recognised by the US DOE, then isn't this national accreditation?

    And if the US DOE already set such high standards to be a recognised accreditor, then why would the Federal government set such low standards for acceptable degrees, as has been suggested by Mr C.?

    The point has already been made about the high standards set by both the federal and state governments for primary and secondary schools. Why can't the same tough standards be implemented at both federal (presumeably they already are through the RA system) and state level for post-secondary institutions?

    It has also been mentioned that should all schools have to be RA accredited, it would impact negatively on small schools. I would question whether small schools that cannot afford RA should actually be in existence. If they can't afford RA, then can they afford to deliver adequate education, especially at a graduate level?
     
  10. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    accreditation agencies - analogies

    Thanks for your reply to my posting.

    Please consider this in applying your analogies: Duke U, UNC - Chapel Hill, East Carolina University, NC AT&T, NC Central U, Pembroke U, UNC - Wilmington, UNC-Greensboro, etc. are all accredited by the same RA (Southern Colleges....). Within this same region, Mercedez = Duke, UNC-Chapel Hill. Toyota = ECU, UNC - W, UNC - G. Kia = Pembroke, NC AT&T, NC Central. However, it does not matter. All of these schools have regional accreditation and have to meet a minimum set of standards. There are 100's of other private and public colleges and universities that go through the same RA process (like the gentleman stated with his analogy to car safety standards). So why is one school highly recognized over the other? Doesn't the Kia get you from one place to another just like the Mercedez? It is whatever you are comfortable with and can afford. I can't afford a Mercedez so I purchase a Honda. I know that my Honda. although not in the elite class of vehicles, has the same minimal standards for safety that the Mercedea has. Plus, I get more miles to the gallon:) The tuition cost, the supports of businesses and the communities, the ability to attract well reknowned professors with high salaries, and individuals' choice to hold certain institutions in high esteem. To me, Duke and UNC - Chapel degrees are no better than one earned at a small private college that is accredited by the RA agency.

    Go to the US Dept of Ed website and click on accreditation. Read through the information. In my opinion, the RA's have too much clout and power. That is why I think that each state should license and approve colleges and universities with a set of minimal standards set for all across the nation. That would ensure that all of us receive a certain standard of education that is beneficial to the good of all. Then there would be no problems or shouldn't be with degrees being accepted from state to state.

    I have been surfing the net tonight. I saw an adversment for college degrees. $199.00 will get you a doctorate if you can prove that you have 8 years of work experience in the field of your degree. Get the degree and 4 copies of the transcript in 15 days. What a joke. Those folks should be inprisoned for scamming the public. The name of the University is Rochville University.
     
  11. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    reply to adamsmith

    I absolutely agree with you. IF the US D of E and DOE take the responsbility to recognize accreditation agencies, then in fact the federal government is the accreditation source. It is an ironic situation that needs to be addressed.
     
  12. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    follow note to adamsmith

    Because small colleges and universities can't afford the millions of dollars, which by the way are passed on to the students, is not a fair summation. The large ivy league colleges and universities started out small too. The accreditation process has gotten out of hand. The RA's and CHEA are not online university friendly. Just because a person sits in a classroom and taking notes and reguritating answers back on an exam doesn't mean one can't learn independently. I know from my graduate work on my Master's that the graduate students do primarily self-study with the guidance of the professor/mentor. I felt like the students were teaching my graduate courses and the professors doing fill-in work with information from the text. I can't tell you how many hours I spent reading and doing research outside of the classroom for my graduate classes. Just to come back to class to present my findings. I admit, I learned a lot. But, I could have also learned on my own too. Not all people have the determination or self-discipline to earn an online degree. That is fine. That is why the traditional schools will always have students. But, for the working professionals who can learn independently should be afforded that opportunity to earn advanced degrees from what ever method that is available. I am always reading journals and books updating my knowledge as my profession changes. I don't get credit for that, but I am more up to date on many subjects that colleagues with doctorate degrees.

    Online learning is wonderful. It gives everyone an equal chance for an education in this country. Not all of us have the time or being located near a post-secondary school to attend classes. Plus, look at the lab fees, activity fees, sports fees, student health fees, parking fees, etc. that are included with the brick and mortar institutions. I don't need that. I don't use those things so why should I have to pay for those things?

    So don't be so quick to throw stones at the small schools that can't afford the high fees. That is another reason I support legislation putting the approval process in the domains of the state governments.
     
  13. adamsmith

    adamsmith member

    Yes, possibly the rules and regulations and the costs involved in getting RA have got out of hand.

    However, there are well financed distance only universities that have RA status. But it is interesting that some regional accreditors are more sympathetic to the DL only mode of university than others! This would suggest a variance in policies and outlooks ever among the accreditors.

    Perhaps this is a good example of free enterprise in action in education - locate your new DL university in a region where the accreditor is more sympathetic to your type of school!

    If B&M universities that also offer DL programs are using modern management accounting principles, they shouldn't be including the costs associated with on campus programes into their fees. However, my personal preference for DL programs offered by the B&M schools is the facilities they have to offer to DL students by way of graduate support among a collegiate of academic staff. I have completed several degrees at both undergraduate and graduate level, so I talk from some experience as well.

    The concept of DL schools with small administrative centres and adjunct faculty scattered around the world, working in splendid isolation from the school, to my mind, leaves something to be desired.
     
  14. JNelson467

    JNelson467 New Member

    Re: follow note to adamsmith


    My apologies for such a primary analogy. wasn't really looking deep into it. I do agree with you as well in your above quote that I too do not feel that I should have to pay for all of the added amenities that a bricks & mortar campus possesses. Especially the sports departments etc. My complaint is that certain State Approved universities who cannot obtain the financial resources or simply choose not to be mass produced by adding more staff etc. just to become RA or NA ( a voluntary BUT very biased and prejudiced process ) are being placed in a DEGREE MILL status and I find that ironic.

    This goes back to the fact of having ALL schools to be mandated by the State in which the school is in and all others that do not comply be shut down... severely punished and fined to the absolute maximum. Having States gain control would aid in eliminating DEGREE MILLS and could probably be done without a huge dent in the Taxpayers wallets.
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    It is silly to claim that RA agencies have too much power. They are non-profit organizations of schools. The schools are the members and run their own accreditation. It is self policed. They only have as much power over the membership as the membership grants. :(

    This makes even less sense than the conspiracy and monopoly theory arguments sometimes espoused by the anti-accreditation crowd.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2004
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Re: federal accreditation of degree granting universities

    So what you seem to be saying is that you want a service, education, but you don't want to pay for it. That hardly justifies systemic change. Besides, if you're really interested in an doctorate, there are inexpensive options.

    -=Steve=-
     
  17. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    RA's self-policed

    You hit the nail on the head. And, do your accounting. Non-profit means that there are no share holders or dividends paid out. The money is used to pay themselves excellent salaries. Policing one's self is an idiotic system in my opinion when it comes to such large organizations. I have several friends who have nonprofit affiliations. I know how that system works.

    RA's have gotten out of control and given too much empowerment by the states. Read the articles and discussions that CHEA and the RA's reps have had with the US Dept of Ed. It is just another big business wanting to control.

    The instituations' programs and the quality of the education the learners come out with should be the main focus. Not how much money you have in account somewhere, the size of the library, etc. The internet is now the world's largest library. It is accessible to any one with a computer or has access to one.
     
  18. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    wanting a service & not paying for it

    You have totally misunderstood my stance. Most of the RA universities' tuition rates are extremely high and the ones that do have reasonable tuition do not offer the grduate program I am seeking.

    Why should I have to pay 80k for a doctorate when I can earn the same degree for 10k and come out with the same level knowledge with the only difference being RA accredited? IT has come to a point now, because of all of those diploma mills, that states will not accept degrees but from RA schools. That is why I think there should be a system in place to ensure quality. I have a graduate degree from a RA university, two BA's from a private RA college. So you are preaching to the choir.
     
  19. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    First of all, regional accreditation isn't the only way to be legitimately accredited in the United States. There are dozens of legitimate accreditors.

    Besides the six "regional accreditors" (so-called because each one cooperates by covering a different region of the country) there are several separate "national accreditors" (that cover the whole country) that serve as institutional accreditors of more specialized schools. An institutional accreditor accredits an entire school, as opposed to a single department or program within a larger school. That means that they are prepared to look at administration, finances etc.

    DETC is the one most talked about here on Degreeinfo, because it accredits distance learning schools. ACICS has been a business/vocational accreditor, but it's branching out. ACCSCT does trades and vocational schools up to the bachelors level. ACAOM accredits schools of acupuncture and Oriental medicine. CCE accredits chiropractic colleges. AARTS accredits rabbinical and Talmudical schools. ATS is the institutional accreditor of a number of seminaries, and a specialized accreditor of many more theological programs within RA schools and seminaries. TRACS accredits specifically evangelical/fundamentalist programs. AABC accredits Bible colleges. (It's interesting how the national accreditors are weighted towards religious accreditors.)

    And there are many specialized accreditors that restrict themselves to accrediting specific departments within universities that already have institutional (normally RA) accreditation. ABET accredits engineering programs. NLN accredits nursing schools. AMA accredits medical schools. ABA accredits law schools. APA accredits clinical psychology programs. AACSB does B-schools. And so on. (There are lots of these accreditors.) These accreditors pay less attention to adminstration and finances, and concentrate on curriculum and instruction.

    Most larger universities have lots of different accreditations at once.

    There is no obligation that any of these accreditors be recognized by the US Departent of Education. Technically, the federal government only recognizes accreditors to ensure that federal funding doesn't go to questionable schools. But in real life, a lot of different parties have voluntarily taken to following the education department's lead in pointing them to accreditors that are credible. So you find government agencies writing recognized accreditation into licensing laws and stuff. Employers may demand it.
     
  20. bikerseven2003

    bikerseven2003 New Member

    accrediting agencies

    Thanks for the reply. It is wonderful to have an open forum such as this to get many of the opinions, information and ideas around the country and the world.

    I am familar with the list of accreditors and specialization accreditors recognized by the US DoE.

    My point is, the USA has a mish-mash of accreditation things going on. I have read through the list of recognized accrediting agencies. It is long and can get confusing.

    I know that a lot of individuals have the opinion that KWU is a substandard or diploma mill [I am not a graduate of KWU or a student at this time]. However, I disagree. I have taken three graduate level courses with that university and the lesson plans and exams were on target with the RA accredited schools with similar programs. The exams were proctored and the content of the exams were very indepth. And when the 3 hour alotment was up for the exam time, it was over. No cheating, no going over the time limit. You had to know the material inside and out going into the exam. I had one course with three texts. My point is, there are credible institutions out there that are approved and licensed by states to grant degrees but are not recognized or accepted in other states. If the instution is substandard or a diploma mill, then that state should close them down. It should be the individual state's responsibility to enforce standards of institutions of higher learning and not a self-policed regional accreditation agency. The specialization accreditation, I agree should continue.

    I enquired with my state government what consist of an "appropriately accredited institution". I received a list back and it only included the Regional Accreditation agencies as being appropriate, not the specialization accrediting or other credible accreditation agencies. There is a wave of over reaction with the recent investigations of the federal government's investigation into funds spent on questionable institutions. There needs to be some kind of legislation on the federal level that sets standards for all post-secondary institutions to meet. In my opinion, it would put all of these diploma mills and substandard institutions out of business or the owners in prison for violating law. I would prefer this standard be applied to religious affiliated institutions too. Fair and Equal...across the board.

    I have another point to share. I have been researching Breyer State University located in Idaho. It is very perculiar to me that Idaho lets this university operate within its' borders but will not allow this institution to offer degrees in the same state. Something is very wrong with this picture. This is another case in point to why there should be a change.
     

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