English-language Título Propio Degrees - Master Thread

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Messdiener, Jan 8, 2023.

  1. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    I'd say that for any anglophone students, using 'Master of Permanent Training in...' or 'Master of Continuing Education in...' sounds clunky and may confuse employers. It's a tough call though as we don't want to misrepresent the degrees, especially if that is a legally mandated degree title in the country of issuance.

    As discussed earlier in this thread, I did like the distinction between terminal vs research degrees, but that might only appear in the degree description of your CV, rather than in the degree title.

    Perhaps, ENEB, Isabel I, ESHE, UCAM or some other schools could provide further insight into what they would permit their degrees to be listed as for English-speaking students?
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    They don't make the rules. Their Governmental Authorities do. And I don't think they'd be about to bend. If their own people are bound by it, they don't want a loophole for foreigners. Frankly, neither do I. The people who made the rules - made them for a reason. Their degrees - their country. This is just an attempt at credential inflation.

    Sow's ear silk purse. I can't even bring myself to say "nice try." :(
  3. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    I'm not suggesting changing the degree title but rather curious as to what we can translate it to. You yourself proposed 'Master's of Continuing Education in...' as a more idiomatic translation, @Johann, so this is this sort of thing that I'd want to inquire about. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, let alone suggesting other DIers attempt to do so.
  4. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    These are good options if they have an English language version, even with the Spanish language option, it may still be workable for those who know Spanish or have taken at least a year or two of Spanish. Having a grasp of that language (say Intro to Spanish, Spanish I, II or fluency to the AP/IB level) and using DeepL or Google Translate may just be enough to get the language. I think I would like to try the DBA/PHD option after I take a few more Spanish courses, maybe to an even higher level for fluency...
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  5. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    Agreed. Knowing that many North Americans take Spanish for years (whether in high school or university), I would hope that most could get through the basic readings and recorded lectures for most of these own degrees. Perhaps, Brits and other Western Europeans might study the language in school as well?

    The trouble will come when it's time to do the thesis. Both here and on the other board, I've seen some suggestions about paying for a professional to simply translate your thesis for you into Spanish. Or if you have even halfway decent written Spanish, one could simply hire a proofreader.

    At the doctoral level, it'll be a lot tougher, especially if you need to give a formal, live defense of your work in front of a panel.
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    What I said was: "BTW "Formacion permanente" - more idiomatic translations are "Life-long Learning." or "Continuing education." Beware the Google! A really good dictionary is best. Or something like www.linguee.com - a very good resource."

    That's legit - per a better source than Johann. But it's not good enough for you - "clunky."

    You're suggesting we attempt to make the the Spanish schools into official Government translators - and into providing what you want. ¡Buena suerte con eso! :(
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It would seem from remarks in this forum that many, many more don't. Or it's completely disused and forgotten in post-school years. Tragically, the same happens with French, in Canada.

    As one myself, I think English speakers in general are a very tough nut to crack, for language teachers.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  8. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    Agreed, it is a legit and excellent translation, but it will still appear like a mouthful to people outside of Spain, as such a degree doesn't exist for most of the world. Furthermore, your average HR person won't have a clue what it is!

    On the contrary, I'm simply asking what they permit their degrees to be listed as. It's not uncommon for universities to dictate what can and cannot be used, on resumes, in official titles, and so forth. For example, I remember that DIers had a discussion on whether HES graduates could call themselves 'Harvard alumni' or not, and I believe that Harvard itself had made a pronouncement about this. Yes, an alumni title is distinct from a degree title, but I still believe there is a precedent here for universities to dictate what we can and cannot do with their degrees. I'm not sure why this is controversial or why it would hurt to at least ask?

    It would seem that my experience and information are outdate then! Back in my schooling days, the vast majority of US-based students, at least in or near major cities, had to take a foreign language in high school (and often in university), and Spanish was most often the popular choice.

    You're spot on about students forgetting quite a lot after leaving school though. I myself could use a solid refresher before starting a degree, whether it is an oficial one or a propio one!
  9. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    Even of those who do take it, Spanish teachers often aren't very good or the classes aren't very rigorous. I still remember going from basic words and phrases (desk, paper, the red pen) in one year at one school, to being expected to translate whole paragraphs of a story the next year at a different school. I was so lost and I did not do very well in that class!
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  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I think the Spanish Educational Authorities came up with these new designations so that their HR managers WOULD have a clue. Are we now going to attempt to baffle OUR HR managers?

    If they'd just called it "Curso (or even "curso avanzado") en Arqueologia" it would have at least been believable.

    Rich Douglas said recently - "If it isn't - it isn't." That sums it up, for me.
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  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    In my day, students in Canada (at least in Ontario - in academic streams) had to take French in HS. Other languages were also available.
    Those people who went when I did (and are still alive) have mostly forgotten French decades ago.

    Then it was decided to start the program earlier. Kids in Elementary school took French. My sons are 50+ - their generation forgot their school French - many of them the day after they wrote their final exam.

    My Grandkids are mostly in their 20s. They have already forgotten their French - which, as Rachel suggested, I don't think was particularly well-taught.

    I think this pattern is probably the same in The US. I imagine the majority of US people who retain their school Spanish are those who live in areas where there is a significant Hispanic population. It's "use it or lose it."
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Oh yes - I forgot. There is a high-enough proportion of Propio enthusiasts, posting in these threads, who want English instruction. because they are not conversant with Spanish. That tends, I think, to illustrate my point. I believe in the US, Spanish is widely taught, but not as widely learned or retained. Same with French in Canada.

    BTW - it is obviously not universal in US schools. Our Moderator, AsianStew mentioned he took French in high school, but not Spanish. I think he lives in the NorthWest. There is probably a high number of people there who didn't take Spanish in school.

    @Messdiener Take care where you take your refresher. I took one a couple of years ago that was a waste of $500. I had a dynamite profesora in college, in the late 80s when I was in my 40s. A Mexican lady - from Chiapas. She taught us well. 30 years later, I spent a lot of time telling the school what was wrong with the refresher course. I knew more from all those years ago, than the people who cobbled together the course. $500 wasted. Dang! I could have had a couple of propios for that! Nice diploma though.
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  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Something like a quarter of K-12 students in America take a foreign language, and some three-quarters who do take Spanish.
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  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    So, 18.75% - less than 1/5 of K-12 students in America take Spanish. Thanks, Rich.
    (1) 3/4 x 1/4 = 3/16. That means 18.75% of K-12 students take Spanish. That's less than 1/5. So 4 out of 5 don't study Spanish. So most will need an English program.

    (2) Messdiener said "I would hope..." - I wouldn't. Based on numbers, not gonna happen. That's why we have an English propio thread.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    This notion of people completely unfamiliar with a language, being able to use Google or other translation devices for university level work is completely bogus. Not suitable to write a decent paper or fast enough to understand lectures. People unfamiliar with the language won't even know if something has gone horribly wrong - as it too often does.

    Stuff that ISN'T real University work, that can be found in some of these propio programs - ticky-box tests, no time limit - maybe. In that case, got a weekend? Fire up your device and do a packet, I guess. That could possibly work.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  16. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    Given the overwhelming outcry, I will retract my assertions that:
    1) Many North American students take Spanish
    2) We may be able to complete a titulo propio degree with said Spanish.

    Now, having said so, my own plan is to do a refresher (a combination of extensive reading and listening through materials I already have on hand) and then to apply to UNIR or maybe UNED. Depending on the specific degree programs offered, I'm still undecided if I'll do oficial or propio.

    While we have had fun discussing many of the non-English programs here (in the English thread, no less), I'll be leaving MassterCursos and the like for later, if/when I need some professional development hours.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I cannot--CANNOT--imagine writing a doctoral dissertation in a language in which I was not fluent.

    There are people who can understand a second language by translating it in their minds to their primary language. Then there are people who "think" in both languages. I have to think you need to be the latter to pull of such a project, and maybe even not then. But you're not going to spend some time on Babbel, then use Google Translate and write with the level of sophistication necessary to produce new knowledge in your discipline. Can you imagine what it would take just to learn the technical terms and language alone? And I'm sure whipping out your iPhone during your viva wouldn't be too cool, either.
  18. Messdiener

    Messdiener Active Member

    Definitely not recommended to purely use GoogleTranslate. Especially for postgraduate work. It might suffice for the odd MOOC, but not for a full thesis or dissertation.

    In my case, I had a decent number of years of Spanish courses (roughly a decade's worth), followed by some years of active use in a major US city. While I've been away for some years now, I still like to read articles and watch Spanish-language content. Hopefully, with some focused study time, I can get back up to speed. Worst case scenario, I hire someone to proofread & edit my thesis. And upon reflection, that would probably be a good idea anyway.
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  19. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    There are translation services that will translate your papers. Some charge by the page.
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That could cost more than your propio. :eek: And it doesn't address the problems that a non-Spanish speaker would encounter with lectures.

    But yeah - this service, as Messdiener concurs, - has a place. But not for me. I'm stubborn. "My" work has to be "mine" in all aspects. I wouldn't even let anyone else type it, even if it was in English. Weird, huh? Maybe it's because I'm old. No, wait a minute. I was ALWAYS like that. Hopeless. :)
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