Employment with an unaccredited degree

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by TeacherBelgium, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    I actually meant licensed to operate.
    For an employer here it would be more important that that institute is registered in a database from the government, but not per se accredited by that government. They would need reassurance that the degree was not bought. But if it's a truly earned degree, they wouldn't disqualify it just because it was not subjected to a government check. They would want the school to have authorization from the government to operate, but if that school was accredited by a private agency (that is qualitative and known for its educational efforts) then they wouldn't struggle over the fact that that agency was not accredited by a government organ.

    Actually the criteria are : authorization to award degrees and having a reputable name.
    But accreditation in the formal sense is less important.
    Even with the bigger companies.
    The government will put a lot of emphasis on accreditation though. Getting a government job without that accreditation would be impossible. But private sector jobs are definitely not out of reach.

    For some jobs they would give priority to someone with only a high school diploma and lots of work experience, over someone with many degrees and no work experience.

    They also expect you to mention your hobbies and special distinctions that you received, to prove your '' soft skills ''.

    For example, volunteering for the homeless is really seen as a plus. Antroposophism actually plays a big role here in applying for jobs.

    If they think your philosophy doesn't match with their values, they will turn you down even when you have an admirable amount of degrees.
    At least half of the job interview will be dedicated to assessment of your social skills and communication skills in my experience.
    Language proficiency is also something they ask a lot of questions about.
  2. GregWatts

    GregWatts Active Member

    As has been said, "accreditation" is largely a US phenom. If you are in Canada, the vast majority of resumes you see will come from some completely recognized and recognizable Canadian University, College, or technical institute. Accreditation is a non-issue.
    Johann likes this.
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's almost always a non-issue in the US as well, since almost all degrees presented in employment situations are from properly accredited schools.

    This is even more so now than ever. There was a real case to be made at one time for some nontraditional degrees from good, unaccredited schools. (The DEAC didn't accredit academic schools, the RAs were hostile to distance learning and independent study, RA schools weren't offering many degrees nontraditionally, etc.)

    These days, most arguments around the accreditation issue focus on what is NOT "accredited." We're seeing this with non-US schools selling degree programs outside their recognized scopes. But it is still a fringe issue anymore.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In the US--where most posters are on this board--a license to operate doe NOT confer recognition as a degree-granting institution in the eyes of almost everyone. That comes from recognized (by CHEA and/or the USDoE) accreditation. (Accrediting agencies also require the schools they accredit to be authorized by their respective state governments.)

    In (almost?) every other country in the world, the state (central government) does this function. Some countries also have private associations in the mix.
    SpoonyNix likes this.
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    So did I, coincidentally. Never got me a job, though. It seems in Belgium they ask a lot about things we can't (e.g. Politics) and things which have no direct bearing on the workplace.

    e.g. Vacancy at large IT company in Antwerp (maybe):

    "Wanted - senior software engineer for Enterprise Database division. 5-7 years experience required. Type, source and existence of IT degree not important - experience is. Must be well-acquainted with Aristophanes and Homer. (VP Engineering is a Classics scholar.) German, English, French and Dutch all required. Yoruba and/or Russian are assets. Preference given to Social Democrats. Christian Democrats tolerated."

    Tough market! :)
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
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  6. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Your posts always make me cringe :p
    I wish I had a grandpa who was as badass as you ;-)
  7. innen_oda

    innen_oda Active Member

    Although there are emerging a spate of career training institutes in Canada calling themselves 'college' which are, although technically investigated and monitored by the PTIB (or whichever branch is applicable in your given province), not at all what I would describe as higher education.

    Canadian universities are, by and large, top-notch pedagogically. The private colleges are . . . less so. It's an absolute racket what's going on. I would not hire anyone with qualifications from most of these 'colleges' unless I was absolutely desperate for any conscious, breathing human body.
    Johann likes this.
  8. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah. I had some fun with fictional job ads some days ago. The VP of sales got on my nerves. So, I wrote a fictional job ad, passed it to our CEO and put the VP of sales in cc. It read something like:

    "As our current VP Purchasing was not able to satisfy the needs of the VP of sales, we are looking for a new purchasing manager. Must be less then 30 yo, have 10 years of professional experience, a Degree in Management and a Degree in Electronics. Has to be extremely assertive with suppliers and be obedient while dealing with VP sales at the same time. Deep psychological knowledge enables him to know immediately what is really meant, he must be able to keep calm in the most dire situations, is able to materialize missing parts by telekinesis immediately, ..."

    And yes, some non-fictional job ads read like this. This one was only slightly exaggerated.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
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  9. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Vacancy for a position as a contract lawyer :

    Must have a master's degree from Yale University (although university of Oneida will be considered).
    Must look like Arnold Schwarzenegger ( although Channing Tatum will be considered).
    Must drive a Tesla (although Porsche Cayenne will be considered)

    Extra legal advantages:

    Mile high membership card.
    Moët Chandon during the work hours.
    Veuve Clicquot during lunch.

    Political arguments are a must.

    Blackmailing and slander are always appreciated.

    You should apply if you can find yourself in the following descriptions :
    Days Of Our Lives is your favorite soap.
    You have reported your neighbours to the IRS at least thrice in your lifetime.
    Thanksgiving for you is about tolerating your in-laws horrible jokes because the stuffed turkey is too good to skip the curse that is your fiancé(e)'s family.

    You promise that your social media is flooded with NSFW pictures only and that hiring you will be the end of this company.

    Regretfully yours,
    Brussels Sprouts,
    Hiring manager of Noa's Arch.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  10. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    To Rich's point about this being a fringe issue...

    It is worth noting that, at this stage, the only unaccredited institutions in the US that are in a grey area are those operating under religious exemption that are actually awarding religious degrees. When it comes to religion, the denomination in which you operate is king, not any specific accreditor. If you get an M.Div. from Holy Sophia Coptic Orthodox Seminary (unaccredited), then you're meeting the requirements to be a Coptic Orthodox priest or deacon. If your goal is to be a Coptic Orthodox priest or deacon, then that program will serve you well. The only time you're likely to hit a wall is if you want to work as a chaplain in federal service (even then, there are exceptions, such as the Graduate Theological Foundation's D.Min. program which is approved by the VA to meet their requirements for employment as a Chaplain).

    If you have a day job, it is highly unlikely any employer will ever care about the accreditation status of your M.Div. in that situation.

    Where these schools tend to run into controversial territory is when the LBUs of the world begin awarding business or communications degrees or other credentials that, while they may certainly be of service to a church, are not theological in nature. Suddenly, a person with an LBU B.A. in Communications may come hoping for a job in my company's marketing department.

    Where the area gets grey is what do I do with that person with the B.A. from LBU when they have an RA Masters from Regent? That's the murkiness. And that murkiness doesn't even approach the same level of ethical disagreement that can occur where a person's qualifying degree is unaccredited.

    These circumstances, interesting as they might be to discuss in theory, are so extremely rare for the average employee that the odds of them happening to the average HR person is exceptionally rare.

    Even the hypothetical Rich and I were talking about...

    What are the odds someone with an Almeda degree in engineering gets hired by a major firm and becomes a specialized and sought after engineer? Not impossible but highly, highly improbable.

    The vast majority of people sporting a truly unaccredited degree are using certificates from mills. And the vast majority of them do not rise to a prominent level in their careers. The vast majority of people sporting buy here pay here degrees are languishing in whatever crap job they had before hand. There was a time when highly qualified people hit a ceiling and paid for a "degree" to break through. That is exceedingly rare in today's workplace. When I started with my company, over 10 years ago at this point, there were at least 4 engineers without degrees who worked their way into the roles. They have mostly retired (one passed away). Next up are the engineers who worked their way into the roles with only associates in engineering. They are phasing out. It is not possible to work your way into the role today unless you also get a bachelors along the way.

    As time goes on, the simple reality is, the innocent time bomb carrier becomes less and less. It's distilling itself down to just the scammers.
  11. GregWatts

    GregWatts Active Member

    Question for everyone:

    Does this mean I could go to Belgium and get a teaching gig with my PhD from AU?

  12. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Well-Known Member

  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks. My grandkids (22, 21, 17, 12 ) seem to get a kick out of me, too. I think it's a grandpa's sworn duty to make sure they do. That's what you sign up for! If I'd have known grandkids were such fun -- I'd have had 'em first. :)
    innen_oda likes this.
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    110% true. All of it.
    innen_oda likes this.
  15. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    That's so true! A grandpa who can be a grown up child sometimes is sooo much fun :)
    Between the war time stories and the hippie era stories being able to do mischievous things and having a grandpa who has your back, is so amazing.
    Like grandpa who brings you to the bar, knows that you are going to stay way later than allowed and still brings you and covers your little white lies. That's awesome.

    You rock, Johann.
    Baron von Biersaufen und Wurstberg, sie mache Spass :)
    Johann likes this.
  16. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Nope. You don't take classes for that one, so will get flagged as a '' bought or received '' degree.
    The institution is also not state authorized.
    State authorization would be the minimum requirement.
    Mac Juli likes this.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I beg to differ, and it has nothing to do with the quality of education offered by these colleges, or anything to do with Canada in particular.

    The term "college" often connotes a tertiary educational institution that--normally--does not award higher degrees. But, because it is post-secondary, it is "higher education."

    It is in the US where the terms "college" and "university" are so interchangeably used. (This is not exclusive to the US, but it is largely a US phenomenon.)

    In the US, a college can be free-standing, it can be a part of a university, it can award degrees, it may not. There are colleges that award the PhD and universities that do not. There are colleges who graduate scientists and others who graduate beauticians. But they are all "higher education" by definition.
  18. GregWatts

    GregWatts Active Member

    Disappointing, but the Dude still abides.
  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Right, Greg. The Dude is in all of us -- or should be, at least. :)
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of low-quality high-cost private vocational schools/colleges in the US too. Major difference : Most of THEM can award degrees! That's even more damaging than the system here in Canada - which, I'll admit, is every bit as bad as you say it is..
    innen_oda likes this.

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