Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

Some universities require a research Master's to get into a PhD. Some universities consider the MBA a terminal degree and require a research based master's. The same stands for the DBA and PhD, both doctoral degrees but the second requires a more considerable amount of research. Some universities, like unaccredited ones, even consider that the DBA shouldn't have a dissertation . An example of such universities are CCU and Empresarial that don't include a dissertation as part of their DBA.

 

I don't see where Empresarial offers the DBA.

It would appear Empresarial is a recognized university in Costa Rica.

(However, this from AM Costa Rica, an English language paper, on Oct 25th: "Costa Rica officials are investigating both the San Judas situation and the new medical school at Empresarial University that said it would accept its first class in January. Officials are unable to verify that the university is licensed to run a medical school." Not good.

 

Se;ective but not competitive

John

I hope you do not think I am in a competitive game with other institutions. I explain our pedagogy and approach and to whom we are making our offerings.

I do not think a Masters, any Masters, would get anybody into our DBA. It will get their application looked at, the subject content and the university it came from.

Of course, our own MBAs and those from the likes of LBS, INSEAD, Imperial, Warwich, and such comparable like, would get into the DBA at EBS.

Many others wouldn't.

 

Professor Kennedy, nothing to do with competitive business, just simply showing by my posting that there is an alternative way for those non academia people on the site that other Masters in Business/alternatives are available, without following the standard rule.

To each his own, wherever they choose to go, but if we dont give them all of the possible options, we as learned persons haven't done our job.

No bias, no low cost, no fast track..only all of the options available for those that are inquisitive.

Your last point was that EBS prefers LBS, INSEAD, Warwick, Imperial and others. You may have opened a can of worms..not a mention of a USA or Canadian school, and definely not SA?

All points taken, EBS is not for everyone.

J.R (ic)

 

Lawrie -

1. You seem pretty sensitive to any sort of criticism of your work. I've agreed that BA in 4 weeks may make sense for mid-career folks that have learned a lot, but lack a formal degree. The reputation of the 3 schools you promote aren't world famous - but they serve a real purpose. I don't see BA in 4 weeks as an answer for all students, however. Further, I've pointed out that the commodity program you promote aren't of the same caliber as top tier programs.

2. I am bothered by questions like "What's the quickest and easiest way to earn credits?" or "What is the shortest Masters degree program?" I don't mean to demean the person asking the question. But the questions themselves demean the academic world by turning education into "let's make a deal" and "how much will you give me for this MBA?". I value education for what it can do to make the world a better place. The current market orientation of higher education is debasing the currency. The issue lies as much with institutions (especially the for profits and aggressive non-profits) as it does with the students.

3. You said: "The performance of DL students is compared with that of traditionally schooled students, every time the DLer sits an exam. The data from these results that I've seen, indicates that on average, the DL examinee outperforms the traditionally schooled examinee by some margin." I asked you for information about how you collected your data to make this statement. Where do you get off saying "I'm sorry, Andy, I am not making claims, you are."?

Regards - Andy

 

John

We are in complete agreement. There are many routes to education (learning and certification) and I celebrate them all. My only concern is standards and within that constraint I am prepared to consider all solutions and to recommend those for which I do not work.

You write: "Your last point was that EBS prefers LBS, INSEAD, Warwick, Imperial and others. You may have opened a can of worms..not a mention of a USA or Canadian school, and definely not SA?"

My words were: "and such comparable like" which suggests you lost some of my meaning in the transposition! There was no suggestion that we would never accept other institutions' MBAs and Masters - that would be plain daft.

The words 'comparable others' would. of course, include many US and Canadian Business School MBAs but on this site with its heavy representation from North America, I am loath to specify named institutions in case the partisans descend on me like a ton of bricks, because I included 'X' and missed out 'Y'. However, living dangerously as I always have and since you 'push' me I offer Chicago, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, Kellogg and Tulane and others of that ilk as illustrative 'comparable others'.

 

RFValve:

"Some universities consider the MBA a terminal degree and require a research based master's."

I completely agree that the MBA is meant to be a terminal degree. However, I know of many successful EBS MBA graduates have gone on to do PhD degrees at other universities, most from our 'Distinction' grade.

Personally, I do not think an MBA is a suitable precursor for a PhD by research, but some top universities on a case by case basis have accepted MBAs for entry to their programmes.

 

Gavin, your a true Brit, polite straight forward and honest.

Your American friends over here like to poke, however a dialogue like this one on this thread is the only reason most of us enter the discussion.

I for one think it's time to close it, that is unless you want to have the last word?

It was a pleasure discussing topic with you.

J.R (ic)

 

Nope, just sensitive to you telling us that, academically, we're a bunch of tossers.

That would be fine, Reasonable. What you pointed out however, was that a whole group of programs and graduates were inferior to the norm by virtue of the learning process employed. That is the issue.

These are reasonable questions and issues, but you cannot extrapolate from your concerns to the condemnation of every pedagogy you disdain. I would like to give the points you raise a more thorough airing. It seems to me they are perhaps the key questions moving forward.

I notice that you cite the conclusion that in the general population (not the subset under discussion), research results indicate no significant difference (in performances). If that is what you believe, and you tell us that it is, how can you contend that a whole swathe of hard working and deserving learners are inferior to the norm? You cannot have it both ways. So, which will it be today?

You will also notice I withdrew any apparent claim unreservedly so that it would provide you no cover. In turn, I asked that you now withdraw your completely unsubstantiated, and given the consequences to others, reckless claims. Where is your answer? Where?

In respect of my observations, I gave you the findings from the National Center for Education Statistics survey. Those who have written to me over the past few years and have detailed their performances overwhelmingly did better in terms of standard score than the normed average.

Now, is that a randomly selected sample? No. Can we extrapolate from there that this is true of the general population? No. Did I ever claim that it was? No. Are they the data I have seen? Yes. Does that data indicate that on average, the DL examinee outperforms the traditionally schooled examinee by some margin? Yes. Should it be taken to mean this is, or must be, or even is likely, to apply to the general population. No. You notice I say the data I have seen indicate . . . not "this is", "it is", "these are".

I will not make such definitive claims unless I can back them with hard data, whereas to will and do. That is the difference between us.

 

Once I questioned a guy from Costa Rica about the school and it seems to be an unknown school with little prestige. However it seems legit, but I doubt you can do much with it . They do have a DBA with no dissertation.

Most of the degrees from less developed nations are not very well regarded in the USA or Canada, however, there are many exceptions. Many schools from india, china, mexico and many countries have good reputation but it is on a case by case basis.

www.unem.edu

 

Professor Kennedy,

How much will the DBA cost?, I hold an MBA from McGill University (Canada), would it be acceptable for admission?

Regards,

RFValve

 

Ok - Here goes Lawrie.

Regards - Andy

When did I say that? I don't believe I have. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, when did I ever say that? Have I used the word "inferior"? Have I ever said that the three schools you emphasize on your website lacked credibility? If I have please show me - and I'll rescind my statement. I know they are RA and I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be.

I would note that the perceived academic merit of these three schools is not as high as some other schools. Want a citation for that? Consider their ranking by U.S. News, albeit an imperfect measure. The undergraduate schools you focus on are "unranked". That doesn't mean that they aren't useful to someone.

Again - can you show me where I said "inferior to the norm"?

The no significant difference conclusion I cite (Thomas Russell) is the summary conclusion from 355 different studies, each one of which deals with a different subset.

The point of the research is that media doesn't matter. I absolutely believe that is true. What does matter, as the Institute for Higher Educational Policy points out in their study "What's the Difference", are a host of other factors - like instructors, learning task, student motivation, and learner characteristic. The focus on media is misplaced - the focus should be on these sort of factors.

As for BA in 4 Weeks, we see an interesting picture. "Student motivation" is pretty high - adult learners often are highly motivated. As for "instructors" - there really aren't any, at least in a traditional sense. As for learning task - it seems to be "score high enough to pass the test" (perhaps I'm being cynical here...). To generalize about all the folks that follow your approach is probably folly anyway - each student is a different case.

I appreciate your withdrawl of one statement (out of a large number). Now I'm not sure what statement I'm supposed to withdraw? Can you clarify which ones you think I'm in error on? Again, I'll withdrawl if you can point out where - in all the words I've typed - that I'm off base. I probably am somewhere.

This is a totally wonderful quote:

According to a recent report by the National Center for Education Statistics . . .
It is also intersting to note that older students (age 40 years and older) were more likely to earn mostly A's (33.0%) than students of typical college age (19-23) of which only 8.3% earned mostly A's. Since most distance-learners are older, this may account for the seemingly-high rate of A's that some claim to have noticed for DL courses. Older students are better students (Surprise!). Tracy Gies "Is grade inflation a myth?"

I don't doubt that the NCES found older students are more likely to earn A's. But the rest of the conclusions are pretty much conjecture. Are older students better students? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But is it because they participate in DL? Or are there other factors - like their choice of school, personal motivation or one of a hundred other factors? Again, media isn't the issue - a host of other factors are. To really know if older students are better students, we need to collect some data with reasonable controls (like same school, same academic program).

 

RF Valve:

I would think that a McGill MBA would qualify as 'comparable' for entry to the EBS DBA programme.

(Its Scot's name would be a good starter - er, just kidding.)

Again I did not mention every School but only some to set a standard. Also, I am not in charge of the DBA and my distinguished colleagues may take a dim view of me making statements that implicate them.

As I understand it the DBA is to cost 21k (GBP) over 5 years DL or over 3 years FT (again this is ballpark not definitive). The first part if 11 taught courses (on campus or DL), plus a thesis in the field of Strategic Change and Focus.

There is, or will be (I saw a version the other week but I am not sure if it is running yet), a Web site for the EBS DBA.

 

Thanks Prof. Kennedy.

The price is the same range as some american PhDs like Touro and Argosy. Of course there is no point of comparison in terms of prestige and acceptability, however, it is still high for canadian residents making canadian bucks. I guess all we can afford is SA degrees or Australian.

Hope that someone realizes that the Canadians need also DL alternatives beyond the Master's level.

 

Bill,

Thanks for responding. I sense that you have taken personal offense to what I wrote. Hmmmm.

Bill: Really? I thought that was what most of my study both private and in schools has been all about. I'd bet you'd modify your position if you sat through some ThM classes or began a doc by dissertation.

Bob: I am an undergrad student. I’m not close to sitting through any Th.M. classes or begining a dissertation. Maybe later, if I have the luxuries of time and money after I graduate. Besides you are straying a bit here because you have taken what I wrote personally and let your own experience dominate your response. As far as I know the majority of college grads do not hold post graduate degrees. So let’s not narrow our conversation to the experience of the post graduate student. That strikes me as an attempt to hang your graduate study around my neck.

Bill: I'll disagree with this too unless you concur that 'real life' can be experienced in the classroom. I've taught (only in secondary schools) these very things. I raise for the class an issue as gun control usually attached to a news story. I throw out a question as, 'Should there be more gun control?' Positions are taken on both sides. Analysis of the reasons of others occurs. Eventually a written product incorporating the reasoning is done. I've done this since '69. I believe my kids do learn thinking and writing, though imperfectly. I doubt that most people are much guided into good thinking and writing by "real life."

Bob: What? I underlined WELL for a reason. I said: “think Thomas Jefferson” for the same reason. What does the high school experience have to do with this, except as the beginning of a life-long journey?

On the other hand, I do think life experience improves the ability of one to think, speak and write, although one would be better to start off in life with these skill already mastered, especially thinking skills. Take two people with identical K-12 learning (and all other things being equal). One is sixty years old, has married, raised three kids, paid off a mortgage, invested money, worked (his) way up to a senior management position at work, buried a child, read a lot, and experienced the aging process. Since you hold a Th.D. I’ll throw in spiritual experience for good measure. The other is eighteen years old. Who do you think has better thinking, writing, and speaking skills?? Who has better judgment? Can the eighteen year old catch up in four years by attending college? I think not. So, yes, I think college schooling (and that preceding it) is (or should be) foundational for the REAL education that is called life, and life does help quite a bit.

As a courtesy, I’m telling you that I’m now going to try to take your graduate study off my neck and hang it back on yours.

Since you teach high school and hold a Th.D., let me ask you this: would it be better to for your students to debate gun control, or debate Scholasticism vs. Hesychasm (since their teacher has a Th.D) and thus to learning who Thomas Aquinas was and who gave Aristotle back to the Europeans and how the esteemed philosopher knew the earth was round and back to medieval times when a lot of people believed the world was flat, and to the eastern Roman Empire and Constantine and the Great Schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy and Gregory Palamas and the Ottoman Empire and all the ideas that can be explored is all of this? I’m leaving out sooo much here. Knowing about these things would have helped people to understand the events in Kosovo, among many others, a hellava lot better.

Your students see Muslims commit terrorism and hear others say such actions are “unIslamic.” Who’s right? How about a comparison of Sufism and Wahhabism (or Rumi vs the Taliban)? Perhaps you can’t teach “religion” in high school. But I ask you which are better: lessons in classic liberal arts or current events? History, Philosophy, Theology, Science, Poetry, even Music, or gun control, abortion, school vouchers, and the environment? I think all of these are important subjects, but which should come first? Which are foundational? When should that foundation be laid? When is it being laid now?

I apologize in advance if anything I mentioned above is factually incorrect. I’m obviously free writing. And I don’t have a Th.D.

Bill: I don't understand (well I do for employment) some of these posts that look upon the study as distasteful, as the opponant something to wrestle to the mat and yank from it victory's prize.

Bob: A poetical straw man. Nice.

Bill: My studies are my friend. I don't pay for their tuition nor fulfill their demands anymore for financial gain (understand I know younger people must work and earn). I'm glad I'm past that motivation and the being driven to finish and be done as quickly as I can.

Bob: I’m happy for you too. I’ll admit that I’m even a bit jealous.

Bill: Done with study? That would be the burial of a close pal, one who has filled my life with much happiness. I think when that one is gone, well, I'll just ...

Perhaps a transpersonal psychologist for you, Bill?

Bob

 

That certainly includes me.

Well put.

My intellectual life is part of my very essence. If I lost my curiosity and my inquisitiveness, I question whether life would be worth living.

 

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Me too Bill!

 

Bill,

It is clear we are talking past each other, so I will stop here. To continue would be a waste of time.

I work full time, study full time, and am have six kids to take care for. I don't have time to argue with you. Or feed your ego.

Bye.

Bob

 

Education is.......

This statement has been attributed to many people but I still think it remains true!

EDUCATION (I'd include 'learning/understanding/wisdom) IS WHAT IS LEFT WHEN YOU'VE FORGOTTEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT!

It's about how you use it, criticise it, utilise it and analyse it....and (my bit)...how far you leave this world better than you found it...even if you've only made one ounce of difference to having caught a child you've taught in school not going to lead a life of crime....or just making sure EVERY child can leave school able to 'basically read and write'! I read today that in the UK work-force (actually working/in jobs) there is the equivalent of the population of Greater Manchester (Manchester is the second largest city in England outside of London) the equivalent in work unable to read and write! What does it matter that we all seek these endless credentials if we don't impart what we learn to others so that they may have a chance to do so? I've given up wanting to do more degrees and hope I can give back to the community I live in (I donlt think I do at times) my time to 'enable' more people to 'empower' themselves. Theswe days we talk endlessly about 'empowerment' - especially in management-speak. It's a 'falseness'. Non oneelse 'empoers' someone else'! Empowerment is about the ability to 'challenge' that which yuo see gets inthe way and to give yourself the confidence to ask questions, to disagree and get people/yourself to 'move on'. These things are not 'gifted' by others. They come from 'the self'!

'telfax'