Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

Or, perhaps better yet, Degreeinfo can put it on many T-shirts, and sell them at a profit.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

Tracy - Let me focus on some points.

Regards - Andy

I encourage you and all NG readers to approach this topic with a sense of balance. LTU's motto "Theory and Practice" is a great starting place. We agree that theory misses out on application. But what about the converse? Well - when Microsoft delivers a new operating system all of the MCSE's in the world have to go through a retraining cycle. Why? Because training focuses on the current - not on underlying concepts. Training is essential - but education builds a foundation that lasts much longer.

But can you be well schooled and learn? I think so. Consider the Nobel prize winners of the last decade. Were they well schooled? Did their schooling contribute to their success? I think so.

Can you be well schooled and come away with little learning? I suppose if you fail to apply yourself, yes. Once in a while I have students that are that way. But with just a little bit of effort, one can certainly turn schooling into learning.

Can a person suceed in life without an education - yes, there are certainly examples. But all other things being equal - education adds tremendous value to one's life.

But academic course work in math, science and art aren't directly oriented at specific job skills. They exist to provide a base education that can be further applied in fields like engineering. I don't believe I see many jobs advertised for people who can solve differential equations. But there are lots of jobs that ask for people who can perform engineering tasks.

I guess I'm not getting through here.

The difference is this - CCNA and MCSE are training oriented. They provide you skills for today - and these are quite valuable. But MCSE training in NT will become dated as new operating systems come out. Learning system programming and networking concepts gives deeper rooted skills. I'm arguing for both training (be it MCSE or CCNA) and academic preparation.

Not to raise an argument, but this is akin to teaching people to pronounce whole words as opposed to phonics. Good students probably end up doing some of both. But teaching phonics prepares a student for learning new words.

I agree here partly - but don't get the idea that learning can't take place in college - it does everyday. For most 18 year olds fresh out high school - it is probably the best place for them to be. Cramming for the GRE or some other exam is a poor substitute for undergraduate education.

Some folks are highly motivated and can learn on their own. Some of these folks who are in mid-career and didn't earn a degree when they were 22 may want to pursue a BA in 4 weeks. That's fine. But for many, many people the structure provided by academic course work is desireable. I have had many students who, when presented the option of self directed or a traditional class, prefer the class.

Frankly, I can't separate theory from practice - to me they go hand in hand. To do otherwise is foolish, IMHO.

This isn't clear at all and I don't agree. High credit hour programs conducted at high quality schools have a lot more than credit hours in their favor. Take the Harvard MBA example - at Harvard you'll have a world class faculty, outstanding library, top notch peers and more. Don't underestimate the value of sitting in a room full of very bright people - the result can be dramatic.

Take a look at how many top executives are Harvard MBA grads. You may argue that they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. But is hard to argue that success for such a group isn't grounded in their intelligence and education.

As for schooling not leading to learning - I don't buy it. Unless you fail to apply yourself (which is true for a few students), schooling does lead to learning.

Don't you agree that schooling can lead to learning?

And how do most people acquire these skills? Through education.

I totally disagree. One of the values of a strong, residential undergraduate education is the impact on the individual - not only in measureable, job specific skills, but in other, more subjective respects.

The University of Virgina is a great case study here. Visit their campus and see how the school's founders arranged housing and classrooms. The idea of a "community of scholars" is real.

I believe this - and I've put my money where my mouth is. My 18 year old is a freshman in a residential college. I see him (and other young people I work with) maturing in academic and non-academic ways.

He isn't cramming for the GRE - he's spending four years learning from real faculty members. No DL. No BA in 4 weeks. Perhaps mid-career folks need a BA in 4 weeks. He doesn't. He needs to mature and grow.

Being skeptical of new age "student friendly schools", I have to wonder if the easy path is missing key skills. For example, in MBA programs where is finance theory, statistics and operations research? All of these are valid parts of a business education. But when poorly prepared students show up what do most DL MBA programs say - "don't worry - we'll make it easy".

No - but each discipline has its own challenging topics. As I've noted in business, topics like statistics, operations research and finance theory aren't easily understood. But then most run of the mill MBA programs don't bother to teach much of this - because the math is too hard for many students.

So - what has happened? The MBA means less and less because the challenging topics are cut out by "student friendly" schools that want "happy students" who earn pieces of paper that mean less and less.

I suspect that the next time any of us face a doctor with a dying relative we'll come to grips with "human skills".

How about studying the great writers of the world? Haven't they dealt with such topics? Oh - but literature isn't a job specific skill. But it is part of being a well educated person.


If you insist that schooling (or ?education in a formal sense?) must lead to learning, I disagree with you. The only way you get a credential (degree), though, is to have your academic performance assessed in or by a school. I contend that the credential is the cake. How you ice it is up to you. I choose to ice it with things in life that are sweeter to me than schooling. [/QUOTE]

 

Lawrie - for once I have to agree with you. How sad that DL stoops so low. Of course, why do you think the rest of the world holds DL in such low regards?

Regards - Andy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

I ran out of time in editing the last note - here is one more comment.

Regards- Andy

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If you insist that schooling (or ?education in a formal sense?) must lead to learning, I disagree with you. The only way you

** I'd say that schooling can (and in most cases does) lead to learning - assuming the student applies himself.


get a credential (degree), though, is to have your academic performance assessed in or by a school. I contend that the credential is the cake. How

** I totally disagree. Credentials are icing - learning is the cake.

you ice it is up to you. I choose to ice it with things in life that are sweeter to me than schooling.

 

Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

Simple, take the math, finance and accounting courses out of the program and you end with the 30 credit two-year part time program. Other trick is to give four credits to the standard three credit course. Take a look at the MBA from Touro for example, no math or accounting is required while business ethics is mandatory, plus all the courses are four credits. I honestly don't know how an MBA with no accounting or math can be accredited, but I understand how it can be finished in two years part time. Some people can argue that don't need math skills or accounting to run a business, but if this is the case, lets drop the calculus courses from the engineering programs since they are hardly used in real life engineering work.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

I totally agree with you. However, IT industry tends to put more attention to hands on skills rather than analytical skills taugh in an electrical engineering computer networks course. I have known many network specialists with arts degrees that call themselves "telecommunications specialists" because they know the Microsoft terminology and CISCO equipment configuration.

 

That's easy. The rest of the world does not hold DL in such low regard, you do, and any number of people in particular parts of the world who associate DL with degrees off the back of a matchbox. The US is a warren of degree mills. It is infested with them. Some exist elsewhere but not to the same extent or with the prominence.

The association with accredited institutions providing DL mediated products is bogus but understandable, and it will take time to overcome. That is the main reason why those who hold negative views arrived at that prejudice. However, in the case of the cognoscenti, I'd ask: what's your excuse? The academy knows, or should know, that the only way to verify their suspicions is by objective assessment of the relative academic performance of the graduates of the programs and institutions under scrutiny, with the "traditional norm" as benchmark. That is, the comparison of outcomes in search of a delta.

We already have this at undergraduate level with standardized exams. The performance of DL students is compared with that of traditionally schooled students, every time the DLer sits an exam. The data from these results that I've seen, indicates that on average, the DL examinee outperforms the traditionally schooled examinee by some margin. Yet even here, despite unequivocal results from an abundance of sources, the cognoscenti still cling to an untenable belief.

Given their great concern and frequent derisive comments, in the case of advanced degrees, wouldn't it behoove the naysayers to test their beliefs in the real world by way of relative comparison of outcomes? Isn't it incumbent upon them to back their assertions and that derision with hard verifiable evidence? Given the dire effects these unsubstantiated allegations may have on the careers and lives of others, isn't it time for these self appointed arbiters of quality to put up or shut up?


Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_we

 

Lawrie - one question: Can you tell us about your data collection? What is the sample size? How did you pick your sample? Without this information I can't evaluate your claim about DL versus traditional. Given what I've read about "No significant Difference", I have to doubt what you claim. It certainly is a feat to make a generalization about traditionally schooled students - there are tens of millions of such people in the U.S.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: Re: Education, Credentials, or Schooling?

I think that we agree on that.

In my experience the reverse was true. I'd read a book and happily assume that I grasped the material until I was challenged by classroom discussion, assignments and examinations into explaining what I knew, justifying it in the face of objections and applying it in novel situations (often chosen by the instructor to illustrate vexing issues). It was frustrating, but enlightening.

I am very good at restraining myself, if only because my own ignorance blinds me to the deficiencies of my own thinking.
Exposure to others can occasionally kick-start my brain.

But not seeking education through schooling would make that a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Because few of my colleagues or friends know anything about the technical details of subjects that they have never studied. The more deeply you study a subject, the more isolated you become.

I find that I sometimes need the intellectual guidance, to say nothing of the companionship, of others with similar interests.

To obtain education and credentials.

Education isn't synonymous with schooling since education obviously occurs places besides schools. But schools are institutions designed to facilitate education. That's particularly true in scholarly and intellectual subjects, and less true in the social, emotional, aesthetic or spiritual realms.

I suppose that the relationship between schools and education is analogous to the relationship between churches and Christian spiritual growth. We can be cynics about churches too. Many are.

Intellectually, is anything in life more important than attending to this fleeting existence that we find ourselves in?

 

No andy you can supply the evidence to back your claims that belittle the effort of tens of thousands. You have made the charge and it is for you to back it with evidence. Again, Excelsior degrees and those conferred by the other of the Big Three are regionally accredited, which if it means anything it is that a certain standard is maintained by these institutions. Same goes for the institutions offering masters programs. Additionally as noted ad infinitum, passing a standardized exam is the evidence that the examinee's performance is at or above that of a traditional college student, at that level, in that part of the subject examined.

Why demean when there is no evidence? When called to account to prove the case, your response is to say, "well, prove that I'm wrong".

Surely, since they are your claims it is for you to back them. Sad to say, all this brings the efforts and motivations of thousand of hardworking people into question and disrepute without one scrap of evidence. Isn't it time that this sort of behavior is exposed for what it is?

[/i]I'm sorry, Andy, I am not making claims, you are. it is your claim that is at issue. The efficacy of the exam method has be verified and accepted by the regional accrediting agencies. By passing a standardized exam an examinee demonstrates competence at or above that of his or her traditionally schooled fellows. That is what is meant by standardized exam, That is the proof.

It is you who questions that establish norm and makes the unsubstantiated claims. Last time I gave you several links to information demonstrating how the standardized exams are normed. Earning a degree entirely by standardized examination is proof that you have met or exceeded the standards set by traditional college students in the same exams.

Why deride every component of DL you don't like? You have told us what is and what isn't and how it is we are inferior. You have been challenged on innumerable occasions to come up with evidence. Speaking generally now, don't you think it is time this was exposed? It is the case that you have no evidence and you can't or wont go collect the evidence that might validate you claims, isn't it? Yet you seem to believe we are not up to standard.

I have given you proof though I need not have done so. The evidence is in the performance of every DL examinee who passes a standardized exam, for that exam is normed relative to the performance of the average college student at the appropriate level. The detail of that norming process can be found in the links I gave you last time. If that is insufficient you can contact ETS. They may still provide the explanatory literature that details the specifics for the layman.

MASTER'S DEGREES
You (and you are not alone) claim "certain" DL master's degrees - say the ones listed in my master's degree list web page - are substandard relative to the traditional norm. Where's the evidence? How do you know what you say you know with no evidence? Why condemn programs as second rate, and by extension the graduates of these programs? These are serious charges with serious life altering implications. For if you are generally believed, competent, well educated candidates may lose the opportunity that hard work and education warrant. These ill considered opinions, dressed as fact, may unjustly cost many their chance of a fulfilling career and their self-respect.

[/i]OK, whatever it is that worries you, I withdraw it. All right? Tell me, why don't you apply that same standard and do the same. Withdraw your claims. Why unfairly diminish the accomplishments of others?

See (1) as it relates to older students for whom BA in 4 Weeks was created. Indeed it is the case that the data I have seen indicate the DL student does better on average. This is not conclusive, and I am happy to withdraw it completely.


(1)According to a recent report by the National Center for Education Statistics . . .
It is also intersting to note that older students (age 40 years and older) were more likely to earn mostly A's (33.0%) than students of typical college age (19-23) of which only 8.3% earned mostly A's. Since most distance-learners are older, this may account for the seemingly-high rate of A's that some claim to have noticed for DL courses. Older students are better students (Surprise!). Tracy Gies "Is grade inflation a myth?"

 

Howzit Lawrie! I thought your website was not only useful but witty in the layout etc. Nobody else thought it was funny??? Shame. I didn't realize until just now that it included master's level options. Keep up the good work. I'm not theoretical enough for this thread so I'm gonna get my Carpathian rear out of here. We need all the exponents of DDL (discount DL) we can get. There's a glass of tuica waiting should you ever stop by the thatched hut.

 

Thank you, Uncle.

Again, thanks, and why must discount and accelerated be dirty words? Think I'll make that page even cheaper and tackier - might be the start of a counter culture. I've been looking to simulate spray paint graffiti. Tuica sounds nice, plum brandy?

 

Yip. Same as slivovica, basically. Mix w. Dr Pepper and become a Sprinter in Four Hours.

 

Learning and certification are compatible

John Roberts ask if the Phd is the end of the road in certification. It isn't (at least in the UK). The next higher degree awarded post-doctorate is the Doctor of Science (DSc). This tends to be awarded by application for a continuous contribution of original knowledge (evidenced by refereed journal articles of recognised status, and, perhaps a serious book length pathbreaking publication). The application is adjudicated by professorial peers in other institutions (including your critics!) and is usally a mid-career award.

There are also 'Honorary Doctorates' awarded by Universities to scholars of stature in other universities. In the UK an invitation to become a Fellow of the Royal Society in England or the Royal Society of Edinburgh in Scotland would probably be regarded as the highest academic honour in one's career and a designation never missed of formal letters or cards , though degrees awarded may be (FRS or FRSE says it all).

Gert is right, no degree by thesis would be classifiable as 'MBA'. The two degrees are too different. MBAs are generalist degrees across at least nine subjects, each up to about intermediate Bachelor standard. It is demonstrated competence to this level in nine subjects that is tested by MBA examinations. An MSc is an advanced degree - above a single subject Honours level Bachelors in a single, or perhaps dual, discipline at Masters level.

The discussion about certification versus learning seems to have gone astray. I indicated in my original posting: "His distinction between 'schooling' and 'education' debate appears to miss out the most important function of 'schooling' (which I treat as a surrogate for an institution, such as a university), namely 'learning'. Our business is creating learning environments for our
students' benefit - we should be more student oriented and less faculty or administration
oriented. Our clients are our students. Their learning is the output of our educational processes; not a by-product or after-thought." That is why learning and certification ('an attestation of fitness') are compatible. Learning is life long; if you want,need certification you have to pass examinations too. If you don't, keep reading!

 

Professor Kenndy, while I agree with your statement below

"QUOTE"
Gert is right, no degree by thesis would be classifiable as 'MBA'. The two degrees are too different. MBAs are generalist degrees across at least nine subjects, each up to about intermediate Bachelor standard. It is demonstrated competence to this level in nine subjects that is tested by MBA examinations. An MSc is an advanced degree - above a single subject Honours level Bachelors in a single, or perhaps dual, discipline at Masters level.

JR says that, the UNISA Masters program offerings from the dept of Economics & Business can clearly offer to the aspiring degree holder a credential route by a mere Dissertation, with a specialty.

http://www.unisa.ac.za/study/postg/index.html

It may be true the HW MBA is a career degree, with those students that enter and graduate becoming 'all rounders" in Business, however to me I dont see a difference..it all depends on the students ability to deliver the goods in getting (in this case) a Business Masters.

So what about the UNISA Masters, why wouldn't a seasoned professional go the UNISA route over the EBS MBA? (ignoring cost).

J.R (ic)

 

Horses for courses

A quick look at the UNISA offerings suggests that there is a world of difference, but we are not in the business of chasing after ever variation in Masters offerings around the world. I do not see how a thesis at Masters level can be equated to an MBA by examinations or that an MBA can be gained by thesis. The former (at least in the UK - but I am never surprised at new developments) is for an original application of existing knowledge, this being defined as advanced work in a single subject discipline (i.e., beyond honours level). The MBA is a generalist degree across multiple subject disciplines to intermediate level only, but awarded for breadth not depth.

That UNISA appears to be offering either advanced post-honours level Masters theses across multiple subjects (at least 7) suggests near genius level candidates, or a Masters by the equivalent of an article at an intermediate level, suggesting a 'dumbing down', is for the candidates (and their future employers, including university faculties) to assess its value.

Even an article in Harvard Business Review (non-refereed) would not get you a citation in a publication list at a reputable university - including Harvard - so I do not know what standards are being applied here.

 

Re: Horses for courses

UNISA also offers the MBA equivalent that is the MBL (Master of Business Leadership) that is a course based master's degree. In Canada, Laval University offers the MBA by research that is a combination of course work and a thesis.

 

Professor Kennedy, the point here is not about who is the greatest or who has the best most recognisable Masters by either HW or Unisa, since they are as you so rightfully pointed out the EBS is a generalist (we both agree) but for those not knowing these facts all Business Masters could imply as being one and the same?

It's also possible for EBS to accept that person with the M.COM from UNISA into a DBA program at EBS, while the poor sod struggling with his HW MBA via DL is still at it?

The point being a Masters is a Masters is a Masters..

That was the point.

J.R (ic)