Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

I agree with you Rich. You earned your doctorate and should be accorded approriate respect for that. Often people don't want to call some with a PhD "doctor" out of not wanting someone to have a bigger slice than them. I remeber a woman who wrote into Ann Landers saying she was teaching her son not to refer to people by title like (Col for a retired Col) because everyone was equal. We know that to be true but not in the snese that she meant it. Hers came across as jealousy. A local DJ once said anyone could earn a PhD just by staying in school long enough. Again, not true. Personally I believe in recognizing somone's achievement. John Stoessel noted that this self centered unwillingness to acknowledge others acheivements (beginning in school) was problematic. Kids singing about being their own hero rather than aspiring to emulate those with admirable characteristics. Was a good program.

It is fine to use your degree initials on business cards, you earned it. Title should be accorded anywhere others are referred to as "Mr. or Ms '. You are also correct (IMHO) that it looks worse on the person who deliberately will not accord you respect for your title. You are being gracious by ignoring it.

As an aside, in Canada when you list degrees......you list them all on cards, etc.

Joe St. John, BA, MBA, PhD,

North

 

I've thought about pursuing a Ph.D or DBA in business adminstration.

I work as a police officer in California, so I don't thing Ofcr. Gauthier - Ph.D/DBA, or Dr Ofcr. Gauthier, or Ofcr. Gauthier - MBA on my business cards and/or being addressed as, would be kind of silly. I simply go by Ofcr. Gauthier at work or Jamie when I'm not working.

 

Ditto.

 

I agree with that. The Ph.D. (or Ed.D or Th.D. or D.B.A.) is the standard credential for a tenured professor at a RA school in the United States. The J.D. (or LL.B.) is the standard credential for a tenured professor of law at a ABA law school in the US. The pay should be comparable, IMO.

However, my question to those who insist that a J.D. is equal to a Ph.D. is;

What is a LL.M. and a S.J.D. equal to?

 

Putting degree titles on a police business card would be tacky beyond words. If you're a street cop, no one you would give a business card to would care, anyway.

I don't even have business cards. If someone wants my name & badge number, they're going to have to do some work by writing it down themselves.

 

Originally posted by Bruce


I agree with that. The Ph.D. (or Ed.D or Th.D. or D.B.A.) is the standard credential for a tenured professor at a RA school in the United States. The J.D. (or LL.B.) is the standard credential for a tenured professor of law at a ABA law school in the US. The pay should be comparable, IMO.

I my experience at colleges and universities, the pay is comparable. In some schools, law and (especially) business command higher faculty salaries than some other disciplines.

However, my question to those who insist that a J.D. is equal to a Ph.D. is;

What is a LL.M. and a S.J.D. equal to?

An LL.M. is roughly equivalent to the elective post doctoral masters earned by M.D.s and other first professional degree holders. It is not that uncommon to see a physician's or dentist's business card read thus: John Doe, M.D., M.S. or Mary Doe, D.D.S., M.S. There is no real equivalent in the research doctorate world, as the masters degree is generally earned prior to the Ph.D., Ed.D., Th.D., etc. Many of the LL.M. programs that I have seen (usually in taxation) tend to be one-year degrees.

I have known a few S.J.D.s, but the degree is not all that common. The S.J.D. is a research law degree along the lines of the Ph.D. Your point is well taken. No one that I know of would consider the S.J.D. to be a higher degree than the Ph.D., but it is universally accepted that the S.J.D. is a more advanced degree than the J.D. or LL.M.

 

I've only met one, the former Provost at Northeastern University, and I don't think he's there anymore.

 

Three things I've noticed:

-Most of the few J.S.D. law school faculty members I've run across seem to be either nearing retirement, emeritus, or in memorium. I think that a dissertation degree was viewed as more important for law teaching in times past than now.

-Where a law professor has a dissertation doctorate, it is usually a Ph.D. in a law related field, sociology or government or such rather than in law itself.

-there is an argument that the LL.M. and J.S.D. degrees are not "academic research" degrees like the M.A. or Ph.D. but are instead advanced professional degrees. I can't say myself except to note that the VAST majority of American LL.M. degrees are in taxation. The LL.M. tax is saleable in the academy but it is usually held by tax practitioners.

Relatively few LL.M. degree programs require, or even allow, a master's thesis or research project.

 

The former Provost of Northeastern that I mentioned was a fairly young man, probably no more than 45 when I met him.

 

Interesting. Indiana University School of Law - Indianapolis just started an SJD program this year.

 

Did they? Illinios Urbana has had one for quite a while, now.

J.S.D. programs differ from Ph.D programs in another major way; the school restricts admissions so severely that years can pass without a single J.S.D. being awarded.

An interesting comparason can be made at the web site for Boalt Hall. UC Berkeley has both a J.S.D. program and a Ph.D in Jurisprudence and Social Policy. The latter has a well established application and admission process whilst the former receives only a few cryptic comments about being extremely selective, admitting at most one or two students each year, publications are recommended before applying, etc.

 

Re: Re: Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

What he said. Military titles among civilians, too.

 

MFA

OK so I have a friend who teaches at the university level in the drama department. An MFA and the highest level he can achieve. His students often call him "Dr." and he doesn't correct them. It's not acurate, but hell, I don't blame him. I'm working toward an MFA right now but I will correct folks.
Anyhow, my two cents.
Dan

 

Re: Re: Re: Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

I guess I see things a little differently because I come from Canada and was in the military in the USA. Someone who retires from the military is accorded the respect of continuing to use that rank. In print it has (ret) for retired after it. It is appropriate anywhere "Mr." or "Ms" is used.

What does irritate me is when somone wants to call you by your first name but wants you to call them by a title. Had this discussion with a Pastor who wanted all his parishioners to call him "Pastor" and wanted to call them by their first name. He bristled at the idea at the idea that is tehy called him Pastor he should offer the respect of initially at least calling them Mr or Ms. His theory was that he was in spiritual authority over them.

North

 

Re: MFA

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. In the arts an MFA is still generally considered a terminal degree. Most art faculty, even at prestige schools, have MFAs.

If I had one and was teaching with it, I'd gently correct my students if they called me "Doctor". (I'm a first-name kind of guy anyway.) It would be a point of pride, like British surgeons and American attorneys calling each other "mister". I mean artists just don't call each other "doctor".

I suppose that MFAs might encounter some haughty attitude in the faculty clubs. But I'd just smile and think of the attitude that the Ph.D.s would encounter at an ultra-hip downtown gallery opening. It works both ways. The art world is second to nobody in the attitude department.

One thing that I find rather ominous and threatening is the gradual advent of Doctor of Fine Arts degrees. If DFAs ever become the expected teaching degree, it will just separate art practice from art teaching that much more. That's not a good thing.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

What a fatuous jerk you spotted, North! I have spiritual authority in my parish because of the call I was issued. I call my parishioners by their first name, but they tend to call me by my title. I don't mind that (any more--it used to bug me) and I surely wouldn't mind if they called me by my Christian name. Let everybody do what's comfortable. To insist on a title for oneself while refusing it to others is churlish at best and being a blerrie a** at worst.

This is one of my tests for a physician. If he or she calls me Janko I call 'em by their first name. If they bridle, I take my business to Kinsel's.

Burns said it best:

Is there for honest poverty
That hings his heed and a' that
The coward slave we pass him by
We dare be poor for a' that
For a' that and a' that
Our toils obscure and a' that
The rank is but the guinea's stamp
The mands the gowd for a' that

What tho' on hamely fare we dine
Wear hoddin-gray and a' that
Gie fools their silks and knaves their wine
A mands a man for a' that
For a' that and a' that
Their tinsel show and a' that
The honest man tho' e'er sae poor
Is king o' men for a' that

Ye see yon birkie ca'd a lord
Wha struts and stares and a' that
Tho' hundreds worship at his word
He's but a coof for a' that
For a' that and a' that
His riband, star and a' that
The man o' independent mind
He looks and laughs at a' that

A prince can mak a belted knight
A marquis, duke and a' that
But an honest mands aboon his might
Guid faith he mauna fa' that
For a' that and a' that
Their dignities and a' that
The pith o' sense and pride o' worth
Are higher rank than a' that

Then let us pray that come it may
As come it will and a' that
That sense and worth o'er a' the earth
Shall bear the gree and a' that
For a' that and a' that
It's coming yet for a' that
That man to man the warld o'er
Shall brothers be for a' that
For a' that and a' that
It's coming yet for a' that
That man to man the warld o'er
Shall brothers be for a' that

 

MFA's in a doctorful setting might well use Maitre (if the plastic arts) or Maestro (if music). The element of nose-rubbing-in-it is not to be spurned.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

It's somewhat akin to calling ex-presidents, governors, senators, mayors, e.g., President Carter, Governor Dukakis, Senator Dole, Mayor Guiliani.

 

When I visit my family physician, I call him "Doc" which is, of course, short for Doctor. He has his degree and licence certificates hanging just outside his examining rooms and except for his degree which says "University of Toronto" and "Doctor of Medicine" there is no other mention of doctor anywhere. The rest is "physician", "surgeon", "physic surgery", "midwifery" and all the other medical terms.

My family doctor, like all other medical doctors are actually "physicians", "surgeons", etc. I don't know how and why physicians became "doctors" and why they were granted "Doctor of Medicine" degrees instead of "Bachelor of Medicine", but, hey it's tradition I guess.

I know that a Doctor of Medicine degree is actually an undergraduate degree, which usually takes 3 years, so I guess that's where the distinction is. The same hold true for Doctor of Optometry degrees which are definately no more difficult than Bachelor of Engineering degrees, so why can't engineers also be doctors?

The MD degree is a coursework degree and is definately not research based. My family doctor did two years of undergraduate work in geography or something like that before enrolling in medical school. He once told me that he hates math and hasn't got a clue about physics or chemistry for that matter.

The title of "Doctor" was traditionally reserved for experts in their field. I guess my family doctor is an expert of sorts in family medicine. As a term of respect I call him "Doc", but I wouldn't put him up again someone with a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics or something along those lines, unless I just got out of a car wreck or broke my arm.

My position on the matter is simple. I acknowledge all MD's as "Doctors" and all those academics that completed research-based doctorates in a specific field like managment science, biology, business administration, mathematics, etc, which included a thesis of substantial nature and length, properly researched and defended under the direction of a supervisor of doctoral rank from a legitimate, accredited school.

If someone graduates from a non-research, coursework-based "doctorate" then how is this any different from an undergraduate BA, BEng or BSc? Really, how is it any different?

As far as use of "Doctor" as a title is concerned, don't use it unless you can defend its use, because someone one day will put you on the spot regarding it. Then people will be calling you "Doctor" and you'll want them to stop.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Earning the title of Doctor (Dr.) in your name...

No. It is simpler than that. Retired officers remain in the Retired Reserve, subject to recall. As such, we're still in the military, just in a particular (and inactive) status. Our retired pay is renumeration for being in that status.

I don't retain the title of "captain," since my retirement, I am a captain.

As for my title of "doctor," I find it funny that it is people who don't have one that seem to object the most to its use.

The title "doctor" is bestowed upon certain members of certain professions, like physicians, and people who've earned the academic title, like me. My use of my title is no more or less appropriate than a physician's. It has its places and places where it is inappropriate.

I am Doctor Douglas.
I am Captain Douglas.
Call me "Rich."

(NB: When I'm in a physician's office, and he/she introduces him/herself as "Doctor So-and-So," I don't introduce myself as "Doctor Douglas." The title is very appropriately used in his/her setting, but not by me. But if he/she did that in my office, I might just return it in kind--mainly because it wasn't correct for him/her to do that--even though I wouldn't normally introduce myself that way.)