distinguishing between ducks

Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

So a little bit of scamming is ok for the RA schools, but mills are truly dirty becasue they scam more ? Only a matter of degrees ? Or by analogy, a bit of adultery of just fine, but don't do overdo it ?

Certainly mills pass out degrees for no work, but is it less ethical personally for Hayes or Callihan to claim a degree for which they did , in fact, work than it is for a jock to claim a "legitmate" degree for which he was "passed" through at an RA institution ? I wonder about this point. Would you like to be treated by a medical doctor who was "expedited" through medical school because of minority status--I wouldn't. Again, I would not advocate anyone's choosing an unwondeful, but I don't see the ethical situation as quite so clear-cut as many seem to assume.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

Contrary what has frequently espoused on other fora, I don’t know anyone on this forum who claims that an unaccredited institution cannot offer a legitimate degree, and schools like Bob Jones frequently are cited as examples. And, you are correct; when an unaccredited institution offers degrees many questions arise. It is usually the answers to these questions that are the most damning, however.

Knightsbridge University degrees are not all illegitimate because of what it claims to be, but instead because of what it is unwilling or unable to (verifiably) claim. Any logical person who, like your husband, Mrs. Evans, read the answers the owner of Knightsbridge provided to the questions posed of him (on this and other fora) has come to the inescapable conclusion that in addition to lacking academic merit, Knightsbridge University, the processes it employs, the owner, and its graduates, are all also lacking in honesty.

I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that the individual may have other credentials that qualify him or her to teach? In my opinion, claiming a bogus credential is a disqualifying factor.

If, on the other hand, did you mean that the Knightsbridge credential may not qualify the individual to teach, but may qualify him or her to do something else? Well, if the old adage that “those who can’t do, teach” is correct, then if he or she can’t teach, he or she can’t “do” either.

 

the force of logic

Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

quote:
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Originally posted by rocco5
Good question and right to the point. Much talk here and also in the press focuses on the dishonesty of graduates of mills. Surely there is much dishonesty but I don't think all cases are just the same. Can you compare Laura Callihan, who seems to have done some kind of work, to somebody who just clicked on Buyadegree and bought a degree for no work ?
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Yes. (Sainz)


quote:
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Originally posted by rocco5
Can you compare someone who bought a degree on the basis of years of legitimate work expereince in his field (say in computers) and sombody who knows nothing about the subject but buys a degree (in theology) just to look good at work.
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Yes. (Sainz)



If these folks are truly comparable in their ethical positions, then degrees from RA schools where scamming in athletics is going on are comparable to milled degrees where scamming is going on. Both types of schools offer unearned degrees ( even as a matterof policy). The only difference is in the extent (degree) of the scamming. Can the taint of scamming be qualified any more than the degree of dishonesty ?

 

Silk purse, sows ear

I almost went to work for Arthur D. Little after earning my doctorate. One of those strange moments when Marina and I were actually at the airport to fly to Boston for the final meetings with them, when it became crystal clear to me that I really didn't want to do this thing, and we made a phone call and went home.

Arthur D. Little himself, very skilled at the publicity and public relations game, got a lot of press in 1921 for his fledgling company when he and colleagues actually did make something very much like a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Story and photo here:
http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/purse/

There are indeed a small number of regionally or nationally accredited silk purses that I used to regard as diploma mills (pig skin, not sheep skin?). The changes occurred NOT because the academic world came to know and respect what they were doing, but because the schools themselves made major changes

 

Re: the force of logic

It seems like your are confusing and intermingling the two meanings of the term “comparable.” When you asked me if I could “compare,” I replied in the affirmative because, I am able to analyze and make a comparison (one meaning). This, of course, does not mean the two things being compared are necessarily “comparable” in the sense that they are conforming in every respect (another meaning).

Could you please show us or provide a link to the written policy of any regionally accredited school to award unearned degrees that are not specifically notated as such (e.g., honoris causa)?

 

Re: the force of logic

RA schools that pass athletes to keep them eligible are dead wrong, and they usually are caught & punished.

However, it is exceedingly rare that athletes who get this special treatment are ever awarded degrees. It's even more exceedingly rare (I don't think it's ever happened) for those who get the bogus degrees to use them for any academic or professional purpose.

The exact opposite is true with those who have mill credentials. They usually buy them for some ulterior motive, be it getting a job, a promotion, or getting admitted to a legitimate graduate school.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

Many athletes are very good students and most are at least adaquate.

But yes, if a "jock" received a degree from an RA school for clearly substandard work, I'd assume that the credential was of doubtful credibility. What's more, I'd consider the whole thing unethical on several levels.

However... there's a tremendous difference between situations where violations of credible and recognized standards are a scandal, and situations where lack of credible and recognized standards is definitive of the institution.

In the first case, one has a pretty good a-priori expectation that a degree from that institution actually means something, even if rare exceptions occur. With a degree mill, one has no way of knowing whether a degree indicates any academic achievement at all.

In fact, the very fact that a scandal could occur implies that there were higher expectations and that violations of them were both discovered and condemned.

Now ask yourself... how could a scandal ever occur at Knightsbridge University? There are no expectations. There is no oversight. Henrik makes the decisions and there's nobody else in a position to disapprove.

 

I was soooo close but just gave up too soon.

Thanks for the most delicious tidbit.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

First, as exceptions to practically anything can always be found, practically everything is a matter of degree, isn’t it? Second, as an example (and only because you were the one who brought it up), in which scenario would you be more inclined to turn a blind eye to his behavior or to forgive Dr. Evans, Mrs. Evans: a single isolated peccadillo that occurred many years in the past, or the discovery that he has a long history of adulterous behavior and is currently in the midst of yet another affair?

Degree mills scam as a matter of policy; it is part of their business plan and the overwhelming majority of the degrees they issue conform to this plan. Moreover, as with any crime, intent is a crucial element.

Yes. Regardless of the way the jock acquired the degree, it is still a legitimate degree if the (legitimate) institution stands behind it. Regardless of the way Hayes or Callahan acquired their degrees (although both did it through dubious means), they are still illegitimate degrees because degree mills issued them.

I’m not sure what you mean by either "expedited" or “minority status,” but I’m not too sure I like the implications.

It is, however, fairly (I love double entendres!) clear-cut. The work is not the issue; we are talking about the degree.

You have addressed several important points, Mrs. Evans, many of which are used by degree mill proponents in defense of their credentials. In a separate post, I will define "degrees," what constitutes legitimacy, why the exceptionally miniscule number of genuinely undeserved degrees from RA institutions is irrelevant, and why degree mills can’t issue legitimate degrees.

 

Re: Re: the force of logic

1. I meant ethically comparable. In fact, I think it is possibily more honest to claim a degree from an unwonderful if the student has done real work than to claim a "legitimate" degree for which one has cheated or been passed for athletic prowess.

2. I would not expect that all policies are written; the mafia has rules and policies, but I would expect to be able to point to a web site with its rules. All cultures have "unwritten" rules.

My real point here is this: corruption is not the exclusive property of mills. Dubious degrees range from some-work to no-work types ( and I don't think that these are ethically the same even if they are pragmatically the same), and some "legitimate" degrees may be (probably are) bogus. RA is not absolute guarentee of high quality.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

I think that I'd put it this way:

A legitimate university with adaquate recognition and oversight can be expected to issue meaningful degrees. But those degrees may occasionally be awarded inappropriately. That is obviously unethical if it was done intentionally and incompetent if it was inadvertant. The resulting credential doesn't mean what one would normally expect and in that sense isn't a valid degree.

A degree mill can be expected to issue meaningless degrees, because there is no credible expectation that the degrees certify an expected level of achievement.

If a degree-mill student has by some outside chance done good work, the mill degree is still meaningless because it doesn't really tell us anything that we can reasonably rely on about that work.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

This is an excellent formulation. Then the a milled degree and the inappropriately awarded RA degree are both ethically tainted under this logic, especially if there is intent to deceive by passing through an academically unworthy student for a degree that proports to certify work that was in fact not accompished or by obtaining a milled degree for substandard work or no work.

 

Re: Re: Re: the force of logic

Who is the more despicable murderer? Even people that have never considered murder may have done something wrong at one time. Just because someone has never been in jail, it doesn't mean that they're a saint. I have paid a fair price for a meal and received food that I didn't want to eat.

The above paragraph has been brought to you by the impatient me that is still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Re: Re: Re: the force of logic

It is, however, the best guarantee available.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: the force of logic

Yes, in fact, we do distinguish grades or types of muder in law and some are more dispicable than others.

Perhaps this whole issue is misdirected. Perhaps degrees are really an issue of simple pragmatism and not ethics at all. In our society, we have come to think of degrees as credentials--hence all the worry about who has got legitimate or bogus degrees. If we saw them simply as indicators of a status is a given society of learning ( Oxford, U, of Idaho, SRU, etc) that might make the matter easier. If I think that your society of learning is worthy, then I accept your degree as academically meritorious; if I don't accept your society as significant, I take no notice of your degree.

 

Thanks to Gus Sainz

Thanks for your interesting points. You are a very learned person.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

Because academic degrees are understood to be reasonably reliable certifications of academic achievement. That's why society values them.

If a degree doesn't certify the expected level of achievement, but if employers, clients and colleagues are allowed to assume that it does, then the degree is deceptive.

I suppose that if every Knightsbridge graduate was careful to explain to everyone that their degree was meaningless, then there wouldn't be any problem. It would be like buying a joke degree from General Delivery University.

But that's not what Knightsbridge is all about, is it?

 

What is a “degree?”
A degree is an award conferred by a college or university signifying that the recipient has satisfactorily completed a course of study. As such, the integrity of the issuing institution is paramount.

What makes a degree legitimate?
A degree, in many ways, is like currency (money). The acquisition requires expenditure of time and effort, and, like currency, it is a storehouse of value.

What makes a degree legitimate and determines its value, therefore, are exactly the same criteria that make currency legitimate and have a certain value. And no, the answer is not the government, but is instead the public. A U.S. dollar is worth what the market (people) decides it is worth. People may disagree slightly on the actual worth of currency (it may purchase less or more depending on where you shop) but generally agree on the overall value. Moreover, this worth can and does change.

So, who has the public overwhelmingly chosen to issue currency that we all can rely on will fulfill its role as a storehouse of value? The obvious answer is the U.S. Treasury. Similarly, who has the public overwhelmingly chosen to issue degrees that will fulfill their role as a storehouse of value? The answer is properly accredited institutions.

Why can’t degree mills issue legitimate degrees?
Degree mills can’t issue legitimate degrees for the same reason that counterfeiters can’t produce real currency. The public won’t knowingly accept a bogus twenty-dollar bill just like employers won't knowingly employ someone with degree mill credentials.

Why are undeserved degrees from a legitimate school considered legitimate?
Undeserved degrees from a legitimate school are considered legitimate for the same reason that a small printing error (such as margin size) on the part of the U.S. Treasury does not diminish the value of the currency. The number of both is so small as to be considered irrelevant.

Why isn’t a degree from a degree mill legitimate if the work submitted would have garnered an individual a degree at a legitimate institution?
A degree from a degree mill isn’t legitimate, even if the work submitted would have garnered an individual a degree at a legitimate institution, for the same reason that a counterfeiter’s currency isn’t legitimate, regardless of the quality of the engraving.

For example take the case of Emanuel "Jim the Penman" Ninger. He was an immigrant Dutch sign painter who, for 14 years (from 1882 to 1896) created $50 and $100 notes with pen, ink, and a camel's hair brush. He made as many as five or six a month, and would travel from his New Jersey farm to New York to buy painting supplies with and for his art. After successfully passing $40,000 in near perfect notes, he made the mistake of going into a bar for a drink. The bartender, noticing that the wet bar had made the ink on the bill run, turned him in to the authorities. Ninger told the Secret Service that it took him two to three weeks to make a note, working three or four hours a day. After his arrest, his portraits were sold at public auction for over $5,000 each. The irony is, of course, that it took Emmanuel Ninger about the same length of time to paint a twenty-dollar bill as it took him to paint a $5,000 portrait.

A picture of one of Ninger’s bills can be found here.

Although Ninger even made slight "improvements" in the official design when he felt the government designer had done a poor job, regardless of his talent, regardless of the time and effort or the quality of his work, his bills were still counterfeit.

 

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