distinguishing between ducks

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by rocco5, Aug 12, 2004.

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  1. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    How would you rate the various merits or lack of for SRU vs. Knightsbridge ? Are they in the same league or does one have more "respectability" than the other ?
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Neither are real universities. Neither are recognized as such. Neither has acadmic processes, or anything else that resembles an actual university. Neither's degrees have any meaning academically.

    The only difference I see is that St. Regis is significantly more brazen in its approach, and considerably more duplicitous. Knightsbridge seems to be open about what it is and what it does, even if it tries to defend it as, somehow, being academic. It isn't.

    Degrees from either operation have the exact same meaning: none.
     
  3. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    SRU alumni (false? ) claims

    It has been widely reported in the press that SRU sells degrees for no work, and there surely seems no reson to believe otherwise. But what about the claims of some alumni such as John Dovelos that they wrote and published dissertations for SRU, and that their degrees have been accepted in Euopean countires. Are these simply false claims or is there some substance to such claims ?
     
  4. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    A while ago, I made the statement that I was not aware of any of the 3,000+ colleges and universities in the US that are accredited by CHEA-recognized accreditors that have a policy of accepting St. Regis degrees. There was a flurry of attack from the St. Regis supporters. Names of properly-accredited schools were provided to me. When I checked them out, none of them checked out.

    Then the St. Regis apologists switched to the claim that many schools did in fact accept their degree, but they wouldn't tell me which ones, because then I'd just make contact with the schools and "force" them to change their policy.

    I still believe that the number of US schools that have such a policy with regard to St. Regis (and I'll toss Knightsbridge in, too) is zero.

    It is not uncommon for people to submit real work to fake schools. As I mentioned here last week, Laura Callahan, late of the Dept. of Labor, submitted a dissertation to the fake Hamilton University, which is still used at Labor. But the point is that she didn't have to submit anything, just as people don't have to submit anything to most diploma mills.
     
  5. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    intersting ethical question ?

    Of course, an unwonderful school is not changed at all in terms of its ethics or non-standards by accepting work from some students but selling degrees for no work to others, but what about the graduate of the unwonderful who actually did, perhaps, a creditable dissertation. Is the graduate of the unwondeful, who did real work and can prove it, dishonestly claiming a degree ?
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I'm curious why you started this thread. Why did you choose these two schools? What interest would there be in distinguishing between them?

    I think that there are much better non-accredited schools out there than either of these wonders.

    A more interesting question might be how one can distinguish between a credible school and one that isn't credible, if you don't have access to accreditation to guide you.

    I most recently addressed that (here).
     
  7. ashton

    ashton New Member

    Re: intersting ethical question ?

    Whether a claim is honest or not depends on the state of mind of the person making the claim. So if a person claims a degree from a degree mill, the person either is being dishonest, or is gullible. Depending on what position the person is applying for, being gullible might be just as bad as being less than honest.

    A person who has no degree but has done substantial research should try to get the research published in a peer-reviewed journal, and then list the publication on the resume.
     
  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: intersting ethical question ?

    I trust that when you use the term “degree” you are referring to a legitimate degree. Therefore, as a degree mill, by definition, does not issue legitimate degrees, the individual who claims (or insists after credibly being informed otherwise) that his or her degree is legitimate is being dishonest, regardless of the amount or quality of the work he or she did to receive it.

    The irony here is that the more or better quality work an individual does in exchange for a degree mill credential, the more he or she has been victimized.

    Interestingly, rocco5, all the subjects you have, to date, broached on this forum are those that, in the past, Dr. Richard L.S. Evans (an individual that has banned from this forum) expressed a desire in discussing. Are you sure that you are not he? If you are, I sincerely hope that you have successfully petitioned the administrators of this forum to permit your return, as I am looking forward to discussing these issues. In the past, those that have petitioned to return have found the administrators extremely accommodating, but the moderators do have a very low tolerance for those who violate the TOS by surreptitiously logging on after having been banned. If you are not the individual in question, then please accept my apologies for considering that possibility that you might be.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2004
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: intersting ethical question ?

    If I claimed a doctorate in microbiology from the neighborhood car wash would I be dishonestly claiming a degree? Let's say that I really did lots of work and truly believed that I had earned a degree from there. Can I make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Would I be dishonest or just mistaken?
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: intersting ethical question ?

    Obviously people often do good work without being enrolled in a degree program. Apart from the most scholarly of discipines, the vast majority of good work is produced outside universities.

    So, if a person's work takes the form of a dissertation and he or she is awarded a degree, the question is what, if anything, the degree is adding to the work that wasn't there already.

    Why are our mill graduates so insistant that Degreeinfo recognize their big fat shiny doctorates? Why don't they just talk about their work? The degree itself is obviously the focus of everyone's attention in these cases, but why?
     
  11. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2004
  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    One cannot get a legitimate degree from an institutions that is not a school no matter how hard one works for the bogus degree. If a bogus degree has been awarded by a real school that wasn't earned (which does happen on occasion) then that degree should be revoked (which does happen on occasion).
     
  13. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?


    Good question and right to the point. Much talk here and also in the press focuses on the dishonesty of graduates of mills. Surely there is much dishonesty but I don't think all cases are just the same. Can you compare Laura Callihan, who seems to have done some kind of work, to somebody who just clicked on Buyadegree and bought a degree for no work ? Can you compare someone who bought a degree on the basis of years of legitimate work expereince in his field (say in computers) and sombody who knows nothing about the subject but buys a degree (in theology) just to look good at work.

    My point here is that moral outrage against milled degree holders perhaps should be graded according to the level of dishonesty, if any. Stupidity, yes, for sure, always dishonesty, I am not so sure.
     
  14. rocco5

    rocco5 member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?


    The debatable question here is the term "legitimate"; of course, if you argue that only standardly ( RA, DETC, NA) accredited degrees are legitmate, there is little room for debate. If unaccredtied institutions also offer legitimate degrees in some cases, then the field opens up and questions arise.

    For example, KU of Hayes fame claims to be a non-standard, unaccredtited, self-validating operation. Are all its degrees automatically " illegitmate" because of what it claims to be ? Perhaps so in terms of academic merit, but in terms of honesty ?

    P.S. Would I want someone with only KU qualfications as a prof ? Probably not, but what if there are other quaifications out there ? That might change the situation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2004
  15. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    Yes.

    One of the biggest mistakes that mill shills make is believing that the quality of their work will automatically validate their school. The opposite is true.....a legitimately accredited school will validate the work done by the student.
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    How does anyone know that he's really telling the truth if the value of his work is only attested by a process that has no credibility?

    And assuming for the sake of argument that the work is in fact good, what's the difference between producing good work and claiming a Ph.D.? What does the degree add that wasn't already there?

    Why are people with degree mill credentials so insistent that everyone else recognize their purported academic titles? Why should other people recognize those titles if there is no credible and reliable way of knowing what they mean or what standard they represent, if any?

    Why aren't these hypothetical people with good work but questionable degrees emphasizing the value of their work rather than proudly parading their questionable degrees and insisting that everyone else genuflect before them?
     
  17. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    I hope you will forgive me, Mrs. Evans, if I remain more than just a bit skeptical on this matter. It’s just that every time a “spouse” has elected to post on this forum, it has been under questionable circumstances.

    This is correct. By definition, a degree mill cannot issue a legitimate degree.

    Who acquires a degree mill and then is completely honest about all the circumstances surrounding it? Hayes has NEVER been honest concern the nature of his degrees or how they were acquired. In fact, he seems unable to answer the most basic questions concerning the methodology his alma maters's utilized to awarded him his bogus credentials (not surprising, as the owners of the schools themselves seem incapable of providing this information). Here is what your husband had to say concerning Knightsbridge University, one of Hayes’s alma maters:
    • ” That KU gang are hard core truth dodgers and prevaricators. I read the entire exchange on DegreeInfo between hard-core regulars there and KU crew. Those "dubious docs/ducks" didn't blink; they stonewalled the entire exchange.”
    And, concerning your question (the original topic of this thread, once again, here is what Dr. Evans had to say:
    • ”That KU crew just burns me--at least SRU puts forward enough information to hang itself. KU is far more clever and, hence, more pernicious.
    Perhaps it is not fraudulent if he tells the truth. However, do really expect to see him admit, any time soon, that the degrees are from blatant degree mills, were awarded through a methodology that, at best, can be described as questionable, and that only through ignorance can the degrees be considered legitimate? I don’t think so. Wouldn't it be easier to simply not claim the degrees in the first place?

    At RA schools, degree-for-sale scams are typically the work of a miscreant employee and not a matter of policy. Passes to athletes is a long-standing, albeit questionable, tradition of many schools done to enhance the athletic programs and hence, recruiting and enrollment. It involves a miniscule percentage of a schools enrollment. With degree mills, what we see is exactly the opposite. Scams and passes are a matter of policy and instead, it is those submitting legitimate work that comprise a miniscule percentage.
     
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  18. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    It's even worse than that.

    Suppose that a person does excellent work outside a university context. Then suppose that he or she acquires a degree mill doctorate in some pathetic search for recognition.

    Impeccable work is now tainted by its association with a questionable process.
     
  19. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    There are a few unaccredited schools that I would consider legitimate. KU is not one of those few. If the institution is not legitimate then a degree from there cannot be legitimate no matter how legitimate the work is.

    So can one make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

    Looking on the web for the proper technique I found this interesting recipe that has the right title but none of the proper ingredients (namely a sow's ear).
    http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/Lambic.html

    Even more confusing I found this which doesn't seem to be directions on anything.
    http://www.sfexaminer.com/article/index.cfm/i/073004op_antr

    I did find a restaurant that seems to specialize in serving sow's ears but there's no mention of any purses.
    http://www.thesowsear.com/

    I finally did find a book that appears to tell us how to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse (or something like that) but I don't want to buy the book.
    http://books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/x0/x512.htm?authorid=2405

    So I give up ;)
     
  20. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: intersting ethical question ?

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Can the actual dishonesty be quantified? For example, Laura Callahan knew the “paper” she submitted was nowhere near the requirement for a doctorate. It is quite possible, however, that an individual who purchased a degree for no work whatsoever honestly believed he was deserving of it because of years of experience or simple hubris.

    For years I have been saying that entities that require some work, such as Kennedy-Western University, are more insidious than those that don’t require any because, while the latter enterprises primarily recruit co-conspirators, the former actually victimize more people. Moreover, these victims usually end up being the most ardent supporters of the legitimacy of the venture, thus assisting the recruiting efforts and the creation of even more victims.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2004

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