CalSouthern's PsyD Disclosure Statement

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Apr 25, 2024.

  1. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member

    Also I wanted to say that there is no argument about a school that has additional APA accreditation prepares students better for the exams required, I think any in-person program can be better than completely asynchronous online, unless they included video lectures and ongoing contact with the instructor, along with ways to ensure that peers communicate with each other in meaningful ways.

    Just looking at the exam statistics, for the California Board of psychology, found under applicants, schools, and then examination statistics by school, the January 2023 to December 2023 exam dates list California Southern University having 18 individuals take the EPPP with 16 passing, providing an 89% pass rate, and a failure rate of 11%.

    January 2022 to December 2022, Cal Southern had 15 people take the exam, 12 pass, providing an 80% pass rate.

    No that I'm only looking, for the school and the school below, at the first timer / first attempt rates, subsequent attempts are not listed, just the overall attempts which are always higher than the first timer, that's because the person is more familiar with how the test is actually worded in structured, so the most meaningful data is the first attempt.

    Alliant University, has multiple campuses, but looking at the campuses, Alhambra had 18 taking exam, 13 pass, for 72% pass rate, one person took it at Irvine and they did not pass, 14 people took it at the Fresno, 79% pass rate, the Los Angeles had 29 individuals, 62% pass rate, Sacramento had 12, 92% pass rate, San Diego had 55, 87% pass rate, San Francisco had 32, 78% pass rate.

    So between both schools, although obviously Alliant has several campuses and has a much larger student population, the passing rates for first-time graduates is very similar! That's encouraging especially in the last few years major changes have been made. Prior to that, sure we actually see lower numbers at the school even though the overall pass rate is pretty high, first attempts were quite low.
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  2. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    There is nothing to "go back and forth" about. Under the old rule, an applicant just didn't have to hold a Master's in Psychology or in a related field because the leveling coursework was available to address that. Now that the leveling coursework is no longer available, an applicant has to have a Master's in Psychology or a related field as I quoted above, word for word, by copy and paste from their last handbook before the change.
  3. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member


    Interesting statistics.

    I do think California Southern's PsyD meets a need for some psychotherapists regardless of state that want a doctorate. It also meets the need for some who want to become a clinical psychologist. The pass rate is comparable or slightly above that of the other schools you provided stats for. The main thing in favor of CalSouthern for some people whose need it will meet is affordability and the online nature.

    A PsyD is a practitioner professional degree. It isn't a PhD in Psychology designed for psychological research. To that end their degree seems to be designed to do what it does.
  4. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member

    @LearningAddict gotcha yes! You did quote it word for word, as I did from the 2016 catalog! So I think we're saying the same thing, they required a masters back then, that is requirement I guess we could call it (a), but they had an exception, which still exists, providing yes leveling courses. I don't know if you have a different interpretation of the 2016, but again sounds like it's saying the exact same thing worded differently, with exceptions. Thanks!
  5. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Actually, what @Chanel1 says about the 2016 catalog requiring a master's degree in Psychology or equivalent seems to be my memory as well. I had been looking at the program back then and they actually offered a wonderful rollback tuition rate which I wish I had taken advantage of. To get students and they rolled it back to like $345 a credit hour or something like $345 a credit hour or something like $395 a credit hour or something like that. Plus tuition discount for veterans.

    I think the degree is now running in the $30,000 range even with a veterans discount.
  6. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    When you say "the Board of Psychology" you appear to be referring to California's board and law. Every state doesn't handle it in the exact same way, and it's been my understanding that workarounds are used for these circumstances in other states where gray areas in the laws exist. But I agree that the issue is more prevalent at the Master's level since there are many more Master's level therapists in training to take advantage of. No surprise given the path to become a Psychologist is much tougher and more narrow with few travelers. We also can't discount how often people thumb their noses at these laws for the benefit of both sides. Struggling or greedy Psychologists and desperate Associates will figure some things out...
  7. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I am surprised that someone hasn't reined in "Life Coaches". It is largely unregulated and you need no education and no training. There are any number of trainings if you want some from Udemy to others that are online and tens or hundreds of "certification" bodies. There are also a couple of legitimate attempts at certifying bodies.

    Don't qualify to be a "Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist" become a "Relationship Coach". Want to be a Licensed Psychotherapist of some sort but only have a GED. Become a "Life Coach".

    There are of course differences and you must be careful not to diagnose or treat. There is even a board certified Mental Health Coach.

    I have seen people get their Coach certification and add an unaccredited degree to it to be Dr. John Doe Certified Life Coach, Certified Relationship Coach.

    The public needs to exercise caution. You don't want to have someone with anorexia or schizophrenia treated by someone who is a Life Coach or with a counseling credential from a Christian Counseling credential mill. At least not a person that doesn't have additional training and a license.

    America is an interesting place. Don't want to do the work and get the education? We have sketchy credentialing agencies, fake degrees, fake "churches" and so on.
  8. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    It also said that if you had a Master's in an unrelated field, you could be admitted to the PsyD program by taking the 6 leveling courses which have since been discontinued.
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Yes, as always. The alternative is to end up regulating everything to death.
  10. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Yes indeed as John Stoessel noted (regarding ridiculous regulation).

    In the State of Texas (if I recall correctly), the Psychology Board got slapped down when an attorney who had a PhD with Psychology training from a top university (but no license) sued after being sent a cease and desist order for counseling people.

    The judge said the Psychology Board's definition of Psychology was broad enough that a grandmother giving counsel to her grandson could be sanctioned.
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Good. I don't think people are wrong to value certification of various categories of professionals. I just don't think we need to live in a world in which anyone who gives advice of any kind has to be board certified to do so.
  12. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member

    @LearningAddict Yes you are correct, specific to California as the rest of my discussion was related to, unfortunately while I know the laws and about four or five other states that I have worked in through telehealth, I don't know them all, but I know California law very well, so yes when I said the board of psychology, this was in reference to California, reflecting the initial comment that started this thread about whether the board required the disclosure, the California Board required the disclosure about licensure and different states.

    And yes you are correct, as the 2016 catalog indicated, a master's degree or related field is required, and the exception, is any unrelated field masters, had to take those additional courses do I have a foundation in psychology, I guess similar to how individuals with a master's degree in business administration, can take 18 units in psychology, and then teach at a community college in psychology? Maybe similar mindset that they had, not sure.

    But not unusual, Alliant for some of their doctoral programs have a similar requirement, in fact some of the programs at the doctor level don't require a master's degree at all, but as aforementioned, having to do a master's degree, plus the PsyD is the equivalent amount of units for those that would do a program at Alliant of 120 units. Other programs require a master's degree, listing no specific discipline, but listing a minimum of 12 specific psychology courses that must be included.
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  13. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member


    You are correct in that the life coaching can be a bit of a problem. While the board of psychology in California has not addressed this necessarily, the board of behavioral sciences has had several meetings, and they have been very hesitant to do anything about it because of the overregulation, and the cost to the actual members (licensed folk) to follow through with enforcement. These meetings are open to the public so anyone can join, but very interesting conversations nonetheless. No one wants to touch the life coaching regulation at least in California, however the board of psychology has sanctioned multiple individuals who use the word psychological, psychology, and related terms which is not allowed, and is a common issue with those..... with some, who practice life coaching. These sanctioned individuals are listed in the newsletter released by the California Board monthly so it's easy to see how often this happens! It's basically a citation, a $5,000 fine.

    And this is not only for individuals who maybe want to quickly get some type of certification to provide services, there are multiple individuals who were previously licensed as psychologist or psychotherapist, and either because of inappropriate sexual behavior, drug and alcohol use, lost their license, and the very next day reopen up shop, different business name and basically are offering the same services under life coach! And there's absolutely nothing that the boards can or will do about it at this time. I honestly don't know what the remedy for that is, I agree that overregulation is too problematic, but it definitely is a scary proposition, knowing that I have clients that used to see a life coach who told them all manners of things that are inconsistent with what we know in evidence-based psychological services.
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  14. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member

    However I think there has to be a clear distinction that not every PsyD, is the same. Alliant offers the same degree (Doctor of Psychology) for individuals who have no intention in getting licensed at the doctoral level, so the degree would never meet the requirements at least in California to get licensed as a psychologist, and is geared for those who are practicing marriage of family therapy. So just because someone has a PsyD, doesn't mean that the courses and the program is geared towards licensure, as the concentration could be in marriage and family therapy, such as the very popular program offered via Alliant.

    They offer a very cool program that several of my friends have completed which is a PsyD in educational psychology, it used to be geared towards both school psychologist and school counselors, but now it's only for those who are already credentialed as school psychologists, and it's only 50 semester units! Completely online asynchronous. Although the board of psychology in California updated the requirements for degrees, a concentration in educational psychology was previously one potential degree that could qualify, in fact it does still list educational psychology as a concentration, but specifically identifies education as the major, such as a doctor of education, in educational psychology. Not sure how they would perceive this degree now since the criteria for applying has been modified. All the folks that I know that did complete this degree, also went ahead and became licensed as educational psychologists with CA board of behavioral sciences, and do psychoeducational evaluations in private practice, as well as supervise up to 1200 hours of educationally related mental health services (supervising associates registered with the BBS providing psychotherapy to students in the school) in the school settings, which was a new provision created a few years ago by the board.

    @Garp Interesting enough regarding disclosure, Alliant also has a professional licensure and certification disclosure, and after clicking on the link, they have very similar language as Calsouthern advising potential students that the degrees that lead towards licensure, are based on (a) California licensure, (b) that they should investigate the licensure in the state in which they wish the practice to determine whether the degree would meet (c) and then they provide a link that details all their programs with a column that states

    "Alliant has not made the determination that the curriculum in this program meets the state educational requirements for licensure or certification for employment in an occupation" ...

    Then it list all the states below it. So this may be an accreditation requirement, although there are multiple schools that don't have this statement, and when working on COAMFTE accreditation, we were not required to put this on our website or disclosure. So I don't know! I do appreciate it though. Looks like the difference is that Cal Southern actually did the work to determine whether the degree did meet or did not meet in each state, well Alliant just basically states that they have not done the work to determine whether it would meet or not and leaves it up to the student to do so.

    By the way, I know the tuition right now is $545 per semester credit, which is pretty cheap for a regionally accredited doctor of psychology that qualifies for licensure, but unfortunately they are going to raise their fees in June! I don't yet know what the fee amount will be, but anyone that applies after June 1st, we'll see the increase! I don't believe this is yet listed on the website, but all faculty are aware, and I believe they recently notified current students of this, as well as individuals who recently inquired about attending any one of their programs.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2024
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  15. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member


    I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with earning a doctor of psychology without any intention of practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist. If you happen to be a therapist, which is probably the most common reason for getting it (from a non APA program), then you just need to make sure that you are advertising your credentials appropriately. This is usually a requirement of regulators and ethics anyway.

    One state regulation I saw said that the doctorate a psychotherapist used professionally needed to be accredited and needed to be in a related field. So you could have somebody with a PhD in counseling, a doctor of psychology, a doctor of ministry in pastoral counseling, and so on. You couldn't be a licensed psychotherapist and have a PhD in English and call yourself doctor so and so.

    And as mentioned above you would need to be clear that you are a licensed clinical social worker, professional counselor, but not a clinical psychologist.

    The one problem with the doctor of psychology is that if I saw a licensed clinical social worker or licensed professional counselor with a PhD, DMin or EdD I would simply assume that they had added a doctorate to their credentials. When I see the doctor of psychology because it is a professional degree I automatically think licensed clinical psychologist.
  16. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    "Who would believe you were a beauty indeed
    When the days get shorter and the nights get long
    Lie awake when the rain comes my diploma on the wall
    Nobody will know, when you're old
    When you're old, nobody will know
    That you was a beauty, a sweet sweet beauty
    A sweet sweet beauty, but stone stone cold

    You're so cold without APA, you're so cold, cold, cold
    You're so cold, you're so cold without APA
    I'm so hot for you, I'm so hot for you
    I'm so hot for you and I'm on fire for you... cheap postnominals.

    Can't explain why it says California Southern University and it isn't the University of Southern California and it's located in Arizona.

    Yeah, I tried re-wiring her, tried re-firing her
    I think her engine is permanently stalled
    She's so cold she's so cold
    She's so cold cold cold
    Like a tombstone."

    Hat tip to the Glimmer Twins
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  17. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    It will of course meet some people's needs. And if it does yours then go for it.
  18. Chanel1

    Chanel1 Member

    Agreed, different from the PhD, in the same discipline, the professional doctorate of psychology may suggest to some that the individual is licensed as a psychologist, especially if the person is offering some form of mental health services. In any other setting, perhaps someone with the doctorate of psychology could have a concentration in industrial organizational psychology or business psychology, or general psychology and not provide direct mental health services, so that assumption may not exist.

    Agree, individuals that embark on that particular PsyD journey should be aware of some of the limitations and if it works, then it does! If not, then they should pursue a school that would fit their educational and occupational needs as those schools surely exist.
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  19. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

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  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I ran into a life sciences professor once who asked me how many pages I would require to write an autobiography. I think I said "two or three." She said, if I remember right, that engineers and hard scientists usually say "one at most", life science people average about six, and social science people say a dozen or more. Judging by the length of the posts on this thread, I'd say psychologists fall in the social science category.

    I don't know where law falls.

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