CalSouthern's PsyD Disclosure Statement

They do now, but for a large part of their history, if not nearly its entirety, they only required a person to have had some completed graduate-level Psychology courses. They only began mandating that applicants have a full Master's in the field back in September.

 

CalSouthern's PsyD course list seems like it might be light on biomedical basis and evidence-based differential diagnosis and treatment, and potentially heavy, depending on the student's choice of electives, on titles off-brand for mainstream clinical psychology circa 2024 including

There are several electives in sports psychology that might be useful for someone pursuing Certified Mental Performance Consultant from the Association of Applied Sports Psychology.

 

Unless I overlooked it, they might be missing a course on group dynamics. It's kind of hard to tell with unconventional course titles. The New Age electives remind me of Saybrook.

 

Hypnosis is actually a reasonable course. The father of clinical hypnosis was a Psychiatrist (MD) Milton Erickson, and the respected Clinical Psychologist and academic Michael Yapko has written extensively about clinical applications AND there are piles of scientific research on efficacy.

There are a number of 700 page Handbooks with Clinical Applications written by UK and US Clinicians and clinical researchers (Medical Doctors and PhDs). It has APA support.

There are a couple of legitimate professional societies (one founded by Dr. Erickson) that require Masters or PhD and licensure.

Note that these are distinguished from any number of hypnosis certifications and associations that are not professional clinical entities. The reason is that it is basically unregulated by states (though not totally) as long as you don't treat, cure, diagnose.

 

I'm just glad that Texas finally banned testimony given under hypnosis. It does not enhance memory; it makes people more confident about their memories, including false memories.

I haven't really focused on the use of hypnosis in clinical settings. Similar to the polygraph, hypnosis relies on the person's belief that the tool works.

 

There has been some scientific research that indicates with hypnosis you experience things as if they actually happened. It lights up areas of the brain that are lit up when an event is actually happening versus simply being created. It does go a bit beyond simply believing in its efficacy.

Dr Michael Yapko has been very critical of people who use it and manage to create repressed memories and so on. But that is what you get when you have people dabbling in it who aren't as cautious and stringent as him. For instance, I'm not sure that training some police officer to do forensic interviews with hypnosis is necessarily the most effective or accurate thing. No offense to them but they aren't clinicians. And of course even as the repressed memory issue shows, even clinicians can manage to create false memories. There was the hysteria of abuse and satanic and stuff in the 1980s and so on. So it is important that therapists are both properly trained and cautious as they use techniques.

One of the things with hypnosis is that it occurs even in settings where you wouldn't normally expect it. For instance, when you drive in your car and you forget where you're going and suddenly are there, that is a form of hypnosis. When you are watching a movie and become associated into the movie and emotional and crying or feeling for a character in the story, that is a form of hypnosis.

 

Of course Dr. Jeffrey Zieg (Distinguished Professor at CalSouthern) is also head of the Milton Erickson Institute in Arizona and was trained by him.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_K._Zeig

 

Potentially! Cal Southern's course description:

Progression in the context of hypnosis refers to progression to a future time or life. Regression has several meanings in psychology, but by implication of its being listed right before progression in the context of hypnosis, it likely means "age regression" under hypnosis typically to access purported childhood memories, or "past life regression" under hypnosis to access purported memories of a deceased person the subject is reincarnated from. Even age regression is out of step with mainstream clinical psychology in 2024, let alone past life regression. (They probably don't mean mean Freudian regression. That's also out of step, has less nexus to hypnosis, and doesn't fit well with being listed immediately after "progression.")

 

Hi all, I normally don't post here due to noticing that sometimes when information is provided that contradicts what other people believe they get attacked. I haven't seen that in a while as I think a few members no longer post or aren't as aggressive, but as you might be able to see I only have commented briefly more specifically about this school because of my own experiences, The major issue with how the school has handled letting go of California faculty because they don't want to pay and follow California rules, but neither does some of the other online schools that are out there (like in New Hampshire) The pacifically list California as a state that they don't hire inand to support others that wish to go this route.

I will say for someone who wants broad employment opportunities, and APA accredited degree would be the best. But that is not what everybody needs or wants, and I respect what people think is best for their life. And that is what I did as a busy individual, who also has been an associate professor, who teaches full time, and already had a PhD. But I just wanted to offer a little bit of clarity for some things that I've read that may have been a misconception for some but could be helpful in this discussion

1. 66 units is not unusual for a postmaster's doctor of psychology. You must have a masters to apply.
2. CalSouthern has at least for the last 10 years, which you can easily request their catalog to verify, required a master's degree in psychology or related study, and if the student had an unrelated master's degree like in education, maybe even sociology, they had to take bridge courses before they can move on to doctoral courses. In fact I believe this was even the requirement before they became regionally accredited, back in, 2017? I can't remember the exact time frame.
3. The vast majority of people who apply to the program are looking to have a doctoral degree, partly for the education, but of course, to have the title, we can be honest about that in some cases, and already licensed at the master level. No one looked at me twice when I got my PhD from a well-known university, but was already licensed as an MFT. But I see that becomes an issue if the degree is in psychology. Although, there are many folks with developmental psychology and social psychology PhDs, but that doesn't really get talked about here, or at least I have colleagues that practice at evening clinics, but teach full-time at state and private schools with those degrees.
4. I am not sure that from my experiences, that the education is subpar. You have very similar assignments that you would get at an APA credit at school, but is asynchronous, not every professor provides video lectures, many do, an easy add-on to the Calsouthern Facebook group would demonstrate how many students complain about how hard the grading is and having to resubmit assignments and recomplete classes. The school is very clear that this is an independent learner model, requiring you to do the hard work learning the material, and getting feedback from your instructor/mentor, all of whom are licensed psychologist and are practicing, which is quite different from a traditional APA accredited school, where full professors have been teaching for years may not be practicing. Not everybody finishes the program, but many who do actually do go on and get licensed. Easiest way to find that out, search PsyD Cal Southern, license psychologist. Most folks have their LinkedIn account and other accounts listed.
There are professors of psychology, with this degree, at even California State schools, I don't want to put people's name in here, but I have a colleague, that has a PsyD and MSW and teaches in a CSU program as an assistant tenure track professor, hired just after finishing her doctorate. An easy search would pull up these individuals, again not going to put people's names in here, but they've made their information available online with the little search.
5. The disclosure is one of the best disclosures, I wish more schools did this at the Masters level for counseling and marriage and family therapy. This disclosure makes it clear that they have done the job of verifying with each state ...does the degree as it stands meet the requirements. However a student who is from a state where the degree does not meet as the program as it currently stands stands can request for a review to determine if they can modify available electives or take additional courses that are available within the curriculum to meet the state's requirement. So this doesn't mean that a graduate can never get license there, unless the state has prohibitive requirements such as Florida, which absolutely does require APA accreditation (or equivalent with a letter from a director of an APA accredited program), as does a few other states like Oregon. Some other states won't allow a fully online program, even if it was synchronous, to be licensed, like Oregon, even if you did multiple weekends on campus/different types of on-campus residencies, that's not acceptable for some of those states, as at a minimum they require you to have a full-on one year on site educational experience. So they ensure that students from those states or who may even think about moving to those states are 100% aware. How many folks came to California as MFTs and clinical therapist and could not use their degree, hundreds! Which is why the BBS had to change their law in 2021 to accommodate these degrees (after so many people came here and had to get jobs doing something other than clinical therapy), and even still, if you miss one specific course, a diagnoses and assessment course in your master's program, you will never be licensed in California at the Masters level. That is specifically under BPC 4999.33 (4999.32, addressing degrees that are missing specific content that California requires and will not allow them to make up)
6. I'm knowledgeable about this because I have taught for more than 15 years, developed curriculum, help get programs get accredited through COAMFTE and CACREP, sat on the committee for Argosys EdD in Counseling Psychology - and an actively involved in both the Board Behavioral sciences and the Board of Psychology in California and have been for years.
7. I remember when people used to talk negatively or, have some misconceptions about Argosy, and yes some of the comments were fair specific to the way the budget and the system was running, but not necessarily about the education itself, understanding that even Argosy had some programs that were APA accredited, and others weren't! Yet many of the non-accredited EdD graduates are licensed as psychologist and, again another quick Google search, are hired as associate professors at California State university's, and other universities that are both state and private in all 50 states!

So I hope this provides a little clarity that maybe helpful for some, with the understanding that I absolutely acknowledge that those who want as much opportunity as they can as a psychologist, should get an APA degree. I did not need to do that, and really couldn't with a family, teaching full-time, and a private practice, I get that this puts me in a different situation since I already had a PhD from a well-known school, so the PsyD simply expanded my practice, but I did have to do 3,000 hours, take two exams, and demonstrate proficiency, but I wouldn't change a thing about my experience, as there was no way I was going to (or even could financially or time-wise) attend Alliant (a favorite school of mine), a great school, but many of their graduates can't even pass the EPPP after spending 180k.... Even a who I believe is a well-known psychologist in the APA discussed how they had to take the exam 11 times (it might have been seven I can't remember exactly... But it was a lot and it was publicly stated) before they finally passed, and encouraged others to not give up. That's another easily Google fact. But a quick look at the student doctor network, and Reddit, type it in EPPP failure demonstrates that folks even from these high-ranking, very well known, very expensive, APA accredited schools don't pass. I would argue that is not about the education, I don't think that the education is lacking, just what you learn in schools not necessarily what is taught on the exam! You learn some of that on the side, and you hopefully get a lot of it in your supervision with your supervisor during your 3000 hours.

 

I hope this provides a little clarity that maybe helpful for some, with the understanding that I absolutely acknowledge that those who want as much opportunity as they can as a psychologist, should get an APA degree. I did not need to do that, and really couldn't with a family, teaching full-time, and a private practice, I get that this puts me in a different situation since I already had a PhD from a well-known school, so the PsyD simply expanded my practice, but I did have to do 3,000 hours, take two exams, and demonstrate proficiency, but I wouldn't change a thing about my experience, as there was no way I was going to (or even could financially or time-wise) attend Alliant (a favorite school of mine), a great school, but many of their graduates can't even pass the EPPP after spending 180k.... Even a who I believe is a well-known psychologist in the APA discussed how they had to take the exam 11 times (it might have been seven I can't remember exactly... But it was a lot and it was publicly stated) before they finally passed, and encouraged others to not give up. That's another easily Google fact. But a quick look at the student doctor network, and Reddit, type it in EPPP failure demonstrates that folks even from these high-ranking, very well known, very expensive, APA accredited schools don't pass. I would argue that is not about the education, I don't think that the education is lacking, just what you learn in schools not necessarily what is taught on the exam! You learn some of that on the side, and you hopefully get a lot of it in your supervision with your supervisor during your 3000 hours.

In any case, I'm a licensed psychologist now as well, I work with psychiatrist who never asked me where I graduated from, some of these psychiatrists work in places that I could never work in, such as the VA, but they respect my opinion, we collaborate well with each other, and maybe if they knew where I graduated from it would be a problem/a judgment, but it is never came up. I have contracts with different agencies, they only cared about whether I was licensed. In fact if you pull up almost any government job outside of the VA, and a state hospitals in California, the requirement is to be licensed, with a doctoral degree. HR does not care, the manager doesn't care, the client doesn't care. However sure those who believe that their education is superior, they may care, and people who need that validation, which is okay I say nothing negative about that, they should attend a school that will allow them to feel proud about their education attainment.

I have no dog in the fight as far as going back and forth on small details or personal beliefs, only hoped that it provided some value to this discussion. PS In my opinion the school is running better than it ever has, more transparent than it ever has been, and I have been connected to this university teaching sometimes part-time on and off and the Masters program, never thinking that I was going to pursue a doctorate with the university, which I should have done earlier when it was free for me! Before, under previous management, around 2018 and before, very mismanaged and a lot of issues with the curriculum, teaching, and the way things were done. Having this new school step in and purchased the university, requiring it to be ran appropriately has been the best thing for it. They will never probably go for APA because of the cost to the student, minimally 150k if you go APA, so sure this is probably a university for those that want to work in private practice, clinics, community settings, and local government and local hospital settings. VA, state hospital, and certain states are off limits, that is what a potential student has to grapple with.

I apologize for any typos or grammar issues, I use my text to speak and don't always go back to review!

 

*specifically**

 

Insightful perspective. Welcome, and hope you stick around!

 

Thanks for your post and input. I have made many of these points so obviously agree with them. On the other hand your first hand experience is much more valuable.

I think a lot of us are using text to talk now and you're right that it does cause a few issues here and there. It adds words and changes them.

 

You are right that there are people that spend an awful lot of money and can't necessarily pass the exam. And that once you are licensed in a work setting it doesn't often happen that people ask where you got your degree from. In fact in a number of years it probably has only come up for me once or twice. Things are usually more vague like do you have a master's degree or what is it in. That is a far more likely question than where did your degree come from. And even that is asked rarely.

I think I have seen a couple of licensed psychotherapists who did the PsyD with the intention of becoming a licensed clinical psychologist. But after going through the program reality sets in. There is the difficulty of having to pass another exam and one that's quite difficult. Then the supervision hours which are long and not cheap. Perhaps all to be doing the exact same thing they are doing. And so they continue to practice with their clinical social work or professional counseling license. Probably one of the main things a psychologist can do that a licensed psychotherapist can't is projective tests. But how often are those requested (I urgently need a Rorschach test)?

 

They did not require a Master's degree in Psychology or related study for admission until September of 2023. Prior to that, if you had a Master's in an unrelated field, any field at all, then they required "leveling" coursework which was just 6 courses. From the school's 2023 catalog:

Leveling to PsyD (LVLP) Coursework (Discontinued)

The Master of Science in General Psychology replaced the leveling coursework sequence described below with the 9/1/2023 start. Refer to the Doctoral Admissions section of this catalog for PsyD admission requirements beginning 9/1/2023.

PSY 6502 Counseling Theories and Strategies 3

PSY 6801 Therapeutic Boundaries 3

PSY 6508 Culture and Diversity in Counseling 3

PSY 6505 Lifespan Development 3

PSY 6506 Psychopathology 3

PSY 6511 Substance Use and Related Disorders 3

Now that they require a full Master's in Psychology or a related field (and if you don't have one you have to now take their full Master's in General Psychology), the situation is a little better. But, considering how long this was not a requirement, that was a valid criticism from their detractors. Even the Central University of Nicaragua required a Master's in Psychology before allowing students to begin Doctoral coursework in Psychology and they definitely didn't have to be concerned with U.S. State requirements.

Failures happen from every school, but statistically speaking it's simply a fact that EPPP pass rates are overwhelmingly far higher from APA accredited programs than from non-APA accredited programs, so much higher that passing is almost entirely on the APA accredited side. Which schools do a better job of preparing students for the EPPP varies like most things in life, but if the numbers are any indication then the preparation appears to be better overall on the APA accredited side.

 

I don't think there is much concern about what will be said to a person after being hired, and it wouldn't matter, because at that point the person is already in the spot they want to be in. It's really about being able to land the state-required internship, and ultimately getting hired at all even after that. I've talked a lot in the past about how some companies and independent Psychologists take advantage of the difficulty people face with finding an internship, charging them per hour at the same rate they charge patients and we're talking triple-digit rates. If a person has deep enough pockets and becoming a Psychologist is everything to them, then maybe they see it differently, but I find it disgusting that people are being taken advantage of that way.

However, there are some good people out there. I can't remember the name of the Psychologist right now, but she set up a system to combat the internship issue. Instead of charging would-be Psychologists, she hires them into her virtual practice, pays them, and gives them supervision. She of course benefits from it as she gets a cut of the hourly rates and rightfully so.

 

It is certainly an additional source of revenue for therapists of various stripes from Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselors, to Clinical Social Workers, to Addiction Therapists. Some states now have an additional credential they can earn and need to supervise interns (the Supervision credential and the add "-S").
It becomes an added expense for interns.

Salaries are getting better but you now need (in most states) a 60 credit hour Masters degree, practicum, and 3,000 hours plus of post graduation internship (with qualified supervision) to become a Licensed Professional Counselor/Licensed Mental Health Counselor. At one point I recall an article telling would-be counselors to consider carefully before jumping into the field (with a romantic notion of being Frasier Crane, Bob Newhart, Freud, etc) due to return on investment.

 

@LearningAddict

Hello! I'm not sure if you are attempting to contradict what I just said, because it seems like we are kind of saying the same thing, I use the word bridging.... But I am pulling up my old 2016 catalog, and then I just googled it to see if anyone else could find it, and you can, 2016 Cal Southern University catalog, page 7, admission requirements for the doctoral degrees, Dr a business administration, doctor of psychology....

states "admission to the doctoral degree program requires a bachelor's degree or its equivalent completed at an appropriately accredited post secondary institution as well as a master's degree in the field of study or related field from an appropriately accredited post-secondary institution. If the applicant has earned a master's degree in another field from an appropriately accredited post-secondary institution, the applicant may petition the team to evaluate the foundational readiness to be successful in the program. In this case the team may require the completion of six prerequisite courses.....'

So as stated in the 2016 catalog, if you wanted a doctor of psychology, you had to have a masters of psychology, or related field.

Page 7, catalog year 2016. I have my old version PDF, but available on slideshare.net

Anyway, I won't go back and forth on that, since it sounds like we are maybe seeing the same thing or have a different opinion of it, but what I said is exactly what it says essentially in the handbook. Thanks!

 

@LearningAddict

It was very common for master level individuals to have to pay out of pocket, however the Board of Psychology is very clear That a supervisor cannot charge an associate any money for supervision or for anything, that is codified into law, 16 CCR 1391.8(a). Any such requirement from a supervisor would immediately allow a potential supervisee to report them to the board ASAP for an immediate investigation. Now that's been the case for at least 10 years for my memory, but maybe 10 years before that the board did not have that requirement. The board of behavioral sciences for the master level individuals do not have that stipulation, so it becomes a really big deal for those at the Masters level potentially pain out of pocket, but that should not happen if they're working at a regular mental health agency, the supervision is built into it. That only seems to happen when individuals are working at places that don't regularly provide services, and they want an outside supervisor.

 

@Garp

The exact.... Same... Thing! Yes this cover practice is essentially the same except, full-on psychological assessments which master level individuals can't do at least in California without adding psychotherapy as part of the process, according California attorney general opinion number 83-810 by attorney general John K. Van de Kamp in 1984. In this case the attorney general indicated that psychotherapist, specifically NFTs in this case could use and construct psychological assessments as long as they were trained to do so, it was in their scope to do so, they didn't hold themselves out as a psychologist, and it had to be utilized based upon a need for psychotherapy treatment.

And some other states like Georgia, Florida, Alabama, perhaps a few others, the scope of those at the Masters level is so broad that it almost appears to not be worth it going to be a psychologist, because they do the exact same thing. Here in California, I could literally just do psych assessments all day without any therapy, a master level therapist could not do that, which is one benefit. But I don't know anyone who has graduated in the last I don't know 10-15 years that would do that kind of projective assessment, I mean even the great William (Bill) Foote who used to do hundreds of trainings about working in the forensic setting and dealing with injury cases who talked about how easy it was to challenge oldschool psychologists who would use that as part of the assessment. But let me be clear, I think it's fine to use as long as it's part of a comprehensive assessment, and it's one piece of multiple psychological assessments, including the PAI, WAIS and other appropriate assessments