California allows college aid to illegal immigrants

No, let's keep the constitution and the laws that outline how one would become a citizen. If that fails, sign me up for a vote for the Hammurabi code!

 

I for one would like to hear how anyone arguing with Bruce here has a vested interest in allowing immigrants to attend school here at a reduced cost. Care to elaborate?

 

You're apparently part of the peanut gallery, because we don't enter any misdemeanor warrants into any sort of interstate database, since it's not worth the cost of rendition, and neither are the thousands of felony warrants we don't enter into NCIC because it's not worth the cost of rendition.

As for serious felony warrants, every warrant entry has a description of how far the entering agency is willing to travel to get them, I think it's in the "MIS" field for NCIC. For us, most are "New England Only" except for the really serious felonies.

When did I mention public knowledge or the press? Let's select an impartial arbitrator to collect and look at the facts, then issue a finding, without ever mentioning your name or where you work. How about that?

Oooops....I did it again, didn't I?

I just destroyed the old "I'd tell you how great I am, but I want to remain anonymous" argument, because we both know you're not going to submit to any sort of investigation of your record, right?

What planet are you living on where you read what I wrote, and took away from it that I need protection from the press?? As for your ridiculous remarks about "impulse control", I won't even dignify them with a remark.

Nice hyperbole....trot out a bunch of handgun calibers and movie quotes that have absolutely, positively nothing to do with the subject at hand, and hope it scares a few people reading this. Do you work for CNN or MSNBC by any chance?

Ummmm.....no, it's not.

It remains open, so in the unlikely event you would care to elaborate on your arguments, or respond to my rebuttals, you have the chance to do so.

 

Try to keep up Bruce...TCIC is the Texas Criminal Information Center database and is used in conjunction with NCIC here in the Lone Star State and yes, municipal misdemeanor warrants are in that (TCIC) database, as are concealed weapons permits and a few other goodies you won’t see in NCIC. I'm not sure if New England has something comparable or not but try to imagine an NCIC that is only for Mass.

Second, I'm a shooter/gun enthusiast and have been for many years. I used to shoot competitively so I also hung around a lot of enthusiasts from time to time and have shot all manner of handguns. Generally speaking, “very powerful” and handgun do not belong in the same paragraph since anyone familiar with ballistic data knows that handguns tend to be on the weaker side of the house when compared to their long barreled rivals (rifles and shotguns). Some exceptions are the calibers I mentioned above (bear worthy loads or “loaded for bear”). I doubt your police issued weapon (handgun to be exact) would be considered “very powerful” by anyone knowledgeable about firearms (which in Texas is most folks), and the fact that you refer to your handgun as “very powerful” tells me more about you than it does your handgun. You seem to have a power trip thing going…and yes I find it a bit amusing ala a real life Dirty Harry (thus the movie quotes). My only hope is that you wield this “very powerful” handgun with more judiciousness than you do a keyboard.

As for comparing arrest records I have no problem saying you’d have me beat hands down, no doubt. I didn’t do misdemeanors (as a rule), traffic tickets, domestic violence, prostitution, underage drinking, DUIs (what have you). I also have not been in law enforcement in any capacity since 2009 and when I was in law enforcement it was for a short stint comparatively speaking. I was however a supervisor and had 7 to 11 sworn personnel who reported directly to me and 22 to 23 sworn personnel under my operational supervision. As you might imagine, running around writing tickets or busting hookers and meth heads wouldn’t have been on my primary responsibilities list even if I had been a townie cop (by the way I say “townie” because it is more clear than “municipal” and easier to write…not meant to be derogatory) . Which makes me wonder, why would someone with your education and experience still be a line level officer?

Even were I to divulge personal information for a contest where there is no prize…I would instead rather compare who has had more commendations, awards, promotions and even reprimands. I’d put my service record against anyone for the few years I actually was a cop. I received some cherry assignments because I did something that probably never occurred to you…I followed the rules and policies to the letter, on everything, all the time. I never viewed myself as a crime fighter, judge, jury, executioner, instead I saw myself as a member of a professional community and conducted myself professionally at all times (I’ve since become a little more liberal about that since changing careers). I was a team player, I always tried to treat people fairly, to be courteous and to deescalate situations (perhaps I’ve made an exception here?) and in general conducted myself as if I were interacting with human beings with legal rights instead of “criminals”.

But then I had some great mentors, upstanding guys some of whom had decades of experience that I could tap for support and advice. I also had a father and brother who were in law enforcement. My dad was a townie later a state cop and my brother is (currently) a sheriff’s deputy (county mountie). I had two cousins in law enforcement (one a game warden and one a state trooper). I had a cousin who was a district attorney and another who is a judge. I learned everything I could from them; I tried not to let my ego enter the job and never saw a positive outcome when there was a circumstance where someone did. I never called politicians names on police forums…never called in sick when I wasn't...never was publicly reprimanded…never called for the ouster of my former and current chief and generally did things by the book whether that worked in my favor or not. It would be juvenile, however satisfying, for me to trust my information to an independent third party (a name I’m guessing you would want to supply) for some “who’s top cop” contest especially as I am no longer, nor do I wish to be, a law enforcement officer of any type, not even on the internet. I have the utmost respect for the police and policing profession, which does not however mean that I have respect for every individual who chooses this profession as I believe some conduct themselves in a manner as to discredit to the whole. So Bruce you win, you’re the top cop. From now on I’ll even refer to you as “top cop” anytime I see you, unless of course you are offended in which case I’ll just stick with Bruce. But you let me know, I don’t want to name call or hurt anyone’s feelings.

Back on topic. For the sake of full disclosure I will say this, I am a Brazilian by birth. My mother and father were United States citizens doing mission work in Brazil when I was born there, however I was naturalized through the U.S. Consulate’s Office as legally I am a natural born U.S. citizen by law (due to my parents being U.S. citizens). I returned to Brazil when I was 13 years old and spent a summer in my birthplace just to see what it was like. I have been surrounded by Brazilians and Brazilian culture sine I was an infant but I consider mysef an "American/U.S. Citizen". My wife is ½ Hispanic with a father that is a U.S. born man of Mexican nationality and so my family life has a lot of Hispanic influence to include many full blood Mexican relatives...none here illegally.

I am also 5th generation Irish on one side of my family and who knows what generation Irish on the other. Part of my family came here because of British oppression, part of us came here on the promise of land (they didn’t mention the native Americans who also thought it was theirs) and part of us came here because of famine. None of my ancestors were treated fairly or correctly when they arrived in America. The only past time bigger than baseball in this country is xenophobia and it is something that has persisted since the birthplace of our nation. Am I a multiculturalist? No…I am a pluralist, meaning I do not believe there is a single “American” culture but a multitude of cultures that make us up as a whole. I do not believe we should strive to preserve the culture of our homelands at the cost of respecting American ideals but that we are all here as immigrants in some form or fashion with perhaps the exception of the Native Americans.

That said the law exists for a purpose, but the purpose of the law has been so distorted and ignored for so long that we can no longer financially, logistically or humanely enforce it. It’s time for an overhaul and time to give the newcomers a fair shake at becoming legal citizens of this country. We grow stronger as a nation with every new people and culture that mixes in the “melting” pot yet rather than tap this growth we spend much effort trying to stem it. If people disagree with me, that’s fine, we are a nation in constant debate but I think we all agree there is an overwhelming problem that D.C. continues to perpetuate .

I can even provide an example of how messed up our system is. I am a U.S. citizen, have been from birth (as I said above) but every time a background check is performed on me INS sends me a deportation notice in the mail if I cannot prove my citizenship (they even did so when I was a federal law enforcement officer which made for some funny conversations). Their database does not/did not communicate with those of the consulate office nor do the morons update their database once I've proven my citizenship as I've had to do so over the years no less than 3 different times. If it's this difficult for me to get through to these people I can only imagine what it is like for someone foreign born who is not a citizen to jump through all their hoops to become a legal citizen. So yeah...I guess I'm a little empathetic.

 

Part One;

Yes, I'll do my level best to "keep up". I have 2 Master's degrees and I'm working on a doctoral degree, but I'll do everything in my power to somehow keep up with your masterful display of the English language that has so confounded so many people to date.

Yes, in 2011, even little old Massachusetts has their own computer system for warehousing warrants. Believe it or not, we don't even have to share it with anyone else in New England; it's called WMS (Warrant Management System). As a bonus, we even have running water and electricity!

I continue to have absolutely, positively, no idea whatsoever why you continue to drag firearm calibers into a discussion about illegal aliens, but if I humor you one more time, will you promise to drop it for good, since it has absolutely nothing to do with this debate?

Your credit is good, so here it goes.....when I said I carry a very powerful handgun while off-duty, I was referring to the many death threats I've received from diploma mill operators resulting from my work here and elsewhere to expose them. Now, I may be crazy, but if those people made good on those threats, I would be facing a human opponent, unless Ronald Pellar has some assassin-trained bears that I'm not aware of.

So, what I carry off-duty is a Glock 26, loaded with Cor-Bon 115gr JHP +P loads, which come out of the barrel at about 1350fps, and that has a 90+% one-shot stop record. When dealing with humans, if you don't think that's a "very powerful handgun", I have no idea what to say to you.

Oh, and if that isn't good enough for you, I have in my gun safe a S&W Model 429 .44 Magnum, a Ruger Model 77 .30-06 rifle, an AR-15, and as the piece de' resistance, a Winchester Model 70 in .458 Winchester Magnum that I inherited from my father, which I have absolutely no use for, but that kind of blows to shit your whole argument that I don't own "very powerful" guns, doesn't it? I've only fired the .458 once (that was enough), but if you would care to list what wildlife in Texas that couldn't be put down with that behemoth, I would be interested to see it.

Okay.....are we done with this totally irrelevant (to this discussion) subject, or should we cut to the chase and see who can piss the furthest?

 

Part Two;

Not meant to be derogatory......right.

Almost every fed I've ever met or worked with preceded or followed a veiled insult with that one. Don't worry, I don't take it personal when someone tries to deal with their own insecurities.

Number one, I still enjoy it. I didn't take the civil service exam to become a city police officer so I could hide in a cubicle and write reports for most of the day. I still get excited when I hear the priority-call alert tone, followed by my unit number. I like driving out of the parking lot of the station each afternoon, knowing that I'm in charge of my own destiny, and not knowing what's going to come next.

More selfishly, I work for one of the highest-paid police departments in the state, and I'm less than 10 years from a full pension, so I'd be a fool to call it quits at this point. I'm furthering my education for post-retirement opportunities.

 

Part Three;

If you want to compare those, then bring it on.....all my chief's commendations (meaningless pieces of paper) are in a box in my basement, as is the second-highest commendation for bravery a police officer can be awarded in Massachusetts (the Robert P. Dana Award), which I received in 2001.

I've never claimed to be a supercop, quite the opposite, and if you would like to know why I took the actions I did as union president (I won't hold my breath), I can provide you with a comprehensive history, including contact info for some union members if you don't believe me. Desperate men do desperate things when their survival is threatened.

Well, that's certainly a potential bias, isn't it? Especially considering that I've lost count of how many illegal Brazilians that I've arrested/charged for driving without a valid license (often after serious crashes that have injured American citizens) and producing a forged document (dime-store quality fake Brazilian driver's license).

No bias there?

All four of my grandparents came to the United States (LEGALLY) from Scotland, just in time for the "No Irish Need Apply" time, and then the Great Depression. If you think your ancestors have a monopoly on "shitty times in America", then guess again.

When you were a police officer, did you have a list of laws that you were willing to enforce, and which ones you were not?

Why do you suppose your name and DOB pops on a deportation order? Perhaps because an illegal alien from Brazil who decided to break our laws and come here illegally either shares your exact name and DOB, or he hijacked your name & DOB when he was subsequently arrested?

See how pervasive the problem is?

As I mentioned, I'm 100% Scottish (all my grandparents are from Scotland), but I would absolutely, positively be in favor of deporting any and all illegal aliens from Scotland that tried to enter this country illegally. Do it the right way (LEGALLY), and I will welcome you with open arms, regardless of which country you came from, but try to skirt our laws, then GTFO.

 

[/end thread]

 

My “masterful display of the English language”? I’m arguing with some dude on the internet, not writing a scholarly paper but even if I were I meant “TCIC”…you missed the “TCIC” in the paragraph a few posts above and obviously the “point” when you decided to go off half cocked saying “we don’t enter any misdemeanor warrants into any sort of interstate database”. My fault though since I drew an analogy using an out of state example, mostly because people who haven’t been to Texas sometimes do not understand how big the state physically is, so the out of state example was intended to demonstrate a not so pragmatic distance to transport… “my bad” on the confusion, maybe I should have said “it’s a long dang way to drive” just to keep the concept simple. Kind of like transporting a prisoner from Washington D.C. to Vermont…dang it, I did it again. Sorry Bruce, maybe you can use your two masters degrees to teach me something.

The gun thing…well, just go back and read the threads, the “very powerful” gun thing cracked me up. A Glock 26 9mm is what I carry CHL so I know exactly what it is. I wasn’t criticizing your gun; I was questioning the psychology behind a man who refers to his duty weapon or other duty caliber handgun as “very powerful”...so in essence I’m not talking about guns, I’m talking about you. Anyhow I admit it made me chuckle a little and yeah I had a good laugh with some friends over it. But there’s nothing wrong with your gun collection so…that’s that. If you still think we’re talking about “guns” I can’t help you any further.

In Texas they share TCIC with appropriately state trained and certified federal law enforcement officers and the state even extends peace officer arrest powers to federal law enforcement officers while on duty and in the commission of their work. This gives us a little more clout to get the job done than perhaps Massachusetts allows for my former federal brethren in your neck of the woods and that includes misdemeanor municipal warrants.

Almost every fed you’ve worked with probably has as much of a skewed view of uniformed, state and municipal police as you do of them. I’ve heard the “Poindexter” comments, etc. referring to feds as generally being accountants and lawyers with guns, etc. Some of the common language especially on the East Coast is to refer to municipal police as the “townies” or county Sheriff, Marshalls, Constables, etc. as “county” or even “county Mounties” and state police as “staties” anyhow it’s generally intended to be good natured and yeah it’s disrespectful and yeah it’s funny and yeah most of them give as good as they get but then I never spent too much time with thin skinned cops. So if you were offended please accept my apology “Officer” Bruce.

I think I understand why you took the actions you did as union boss and doubt I need to contact anyone. God knows you left a paper trail behind you on the internet in the form of news articles, etc. You guys didn’t like your chief; you didn’t think he was in tune with his job and your job, etc. got it. Maybe you did the right thing fighting the guy, maybe it was a matter of survival and maybe you are to be commended on it and maybe your career took a hit. I don’t know and I have no right to make that call, but what I can say is that in a similar circumstance I wouldn’t have been the kind of guy to publicly air dirty laundry but then that’s just my temperament. And yeah, I worked for some real A-holes like you wouldn’t believe while in law enforcement to include one guy who was eventually indicted by a grand jury. But again my focus remained on my work, that’s what I was paid for. Now don’t take this as a criticism, it’s not meant to be, I’m just drawing a distinction between how we may be very different at a fundamental level, probably in more ways than one.

I think we're finally down to brass tacks, you don't like illegal immigrants and because of that you'd like to use your police powers to do something about that. When I was a cop I used “police discretion” every day but at the federal level we probably did not have the level of discretion you guys. Federal police work and state police work are two different worlds so no I guess I did not have the luxury of deciding which laws within my jurisdiction to enforce or not to enforce carte blanche especially as our jurisdiction was so narrowly defined comparatively speaking, but then I’ve always considered police to be procedural by nature and always followed procedure, even when I disagreed with it. It wasn’t my job (and I doubt yours) to interpret law, that’s up to the courts.

My identity has not been stolen by a Brazilian or other illegal, my example was to draw an illustration (a real life one) of how jacked up INS is even when they are trying to do the right thing. There is no warrant or criminal activity tied with my name, DL number, etc. and I know because even now I have to go through extensive background checks and credit checks for my current job, plus I have to renew my concealed handgun license every so often which is a very, very thorough background check in Texas. But I did get my credit card number stolen once by a dude in Massachusetts so now I have that life lock thingy…but thanks for your concern.

I have no blood ties to Brazil and no confusion on what my birth there means…which is squat. In fact I do have blood ties to Ireland but even in that case it causes no more bias towards illegal immigrants because of them than you would have because your grandparents are from Scotland. So no, there is no conflict of interest here and does not invalidate my argument. But if your grandparents were here today, trying to become legal citizens, do you think they would have put up with the system we currently have in place? Would they have the thousands of dollars and patience of years of uncertainty to try and navigate their way through the morass we currently call INS? Do you think it fair that your grandparents went through a much more efficient and streamlined process than what immigrants have to do today? Would you want your grandparents to meet a cop with your same temperament and attitude towards immigrants? All I’m asking you to do is think objectively and yes critically (putting those “mad scholarly skillz” to work). If you have done so and made your decision based upon that, then good, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I have seen no evidence of that in your argument here, just attacks, but then that’s just my opinion and like they say…opinions are like…well you know the rest.

 

Police Officers don't like criminals? You don't say? Also, Bruce has already stated that he does not specifically target people, but if someone gets in trouble and he runs their name and it comes back that they are here ILLEGALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!! They need to go home.

I'm not a cop and I do not like criminals either. The rest of your post is just talking around the issue with thinly veiled insults thrown in.

There is no such thing as INS anymore, they ceased to exist back in 2002 or 2003. It's now USCIS - as I mentioned before I worked for them. I think illegal immigrants (from whatever country they come from) do a great disservice to our country and to any of their own fellow countrymen who may wish to come here THE RIGHT WAY. Too bad the system takes to long. There are many instances where things take a long time and cost money, should we skip those too?

 

Cory then by your definition anyone who commits a misdomeanor traffic violation would also be a "criminal" with the exception that local police have no jurisdiction to arrest. So I assume next time you get pulled over and treated like a "criminal" you won't be all butt hurt about the officer being rude and hurting your feelings? Different from a traffic violoation however you are creating a defacto "criminal class" because their mere presence is a crime even if a misdomeanor, but it is what it is and I think you are missing the point, I'm not defending their right to be here illegally because honestly I think they should do all they can to do the right thing and get here legally. However I empathize with them unlike most right wing folks, I realize the laws need major rework and in the mean time that it is not pragmatic logistically or financially to attempt to jail and/or deport 12 million people and it would be impossible to do so in a humane manner period. Yell, rant, rave it doesn't change the facts on the ground.

According to the National Policy Institute if you were to deport 10 million illegals (there are about 12 million estimated now) you would have a rough price tag around 206-230 billion dollars assuming it were even logistically possible and assuming that 10 to 20% of illegals would voluntarily leave once they hear deportation is imminent (something I do not believe).

Since this has become such a hot issue, in the Southwest between 1978 and 1999 the Border Patrol and like enforcement costs have increased 338% and costs are expected to keep rising despite being largely ineffective. In short the “cure” of enforcement is exacerbating the problem (overwhelming cost) and the cycle cannot continue…we need massive reform if for no other reason than financially (since obviously the humanity aspect of it is lost on some of you). But in the meantime increasing yet more enforcement would exceed even the 230 billion dollar price tag that using current infrastructure would.

Lastly deportation is a temporary measure for a permanent problem. You deport them, how many do you think would come back? What’s the price tag of ensuring enough enforcement to ensure they do not successfully make it through increased enforcement? Stiffer penalties even to include prison sentences? What about court costs? The cost of incarceration ($25,000-$35,000 per inmate per year federal)?

Why is it everyone thinks it’s either “deport now” or “let them stay forever”. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground because everyone is wrapped around the axle on rhetoric and it accomplishes nothing.

As for Bruce and I, well let’s just say when people start digging into my credibility and questioning my professional judgment (as it was) I fire back.

Here’s some light reading.
Illegal Immigration and Enforcement Along the Southwest Border - The Border Economy - FRB Dallas
The Economics of Immigration Enforcement | National Policy Institute

 

Is there anything factually inaccurate about my statement that we don't put misdemeanor warrants into any interstate database? No, there is not. As for WMS, every warrant is entered, and as I mentioned, if someone with a Boston warrant is arrested on the NY border, they get arraigned in the district court where the arrest happened, and if they're not held on the warrant, they get a date to appear in the Boston court to answer for the charge. In 2011, there is no reason whatsoever for a police department to send officers on warrant pickups, unless it's a serious charge and the initiating department want the suspect for questioning, etc.

You can save your amateur psychology....I had some good laughs with some friends over your poor attempt at psychological analysis, and in any case, I have to wonder about the Freudian implications of someone who insists on dragging firearms calibers into a discussion about illegal aliens.

Massachusetts does not grant state or local arrest powers to federal law enforcement, something I would change if I were in charge of such things, but I'm not. However, I do know the VA Police will detain someone on a state warrant until the local police arrive, which I assume is the same for other federal agencies, and also that the US Marshals have the same power as sheriffs to enforce state law....it's written into the US Code.

For a time I worked with the Boston DEA Task Force, so I've worked with a multitude of different federal agencies. Most of them were fine, but once in awhile there would be a cranker with the "supreme fed" syndrome, which coincidentally were some of the worst people to work with.

I don't regret a single thing I did as union president in regards to that, because I helped to get rid of a dangerous tyrant who was ruining the department and ruining people's lives. Even years after I left office, I still have people thanking me for stepping up and taking him on.....as long as I have the respect of my co-workers, that's all that matters to me in the end.

Okay, so I make a traffic stop, and the operator has no valid identification issued by an American government, just a fake Brazilian driver's license where the picture of the operator was taken outside under a tree (true story). What exactly should I do in that situation, other than make the lawful arrest so we can get the person's fingerprints into the system to see if they're wanted anywhere?

I've had illegals pop on warrants for serious crimes (under different names), in addition to prior deportations. For all I know, someone could be wanted for murder in Sao Paulo, or even in Massachusetts under a different name. Just for the record, I do the same for Americans who have no valid ID and no history in the CJIS database where I can't verify their identity.

So, if something is inconvenient, that justifies breaking the law?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I couldn't disagree more.

 

Except of course (historically) when it involved sodomy.

 

What (or when) were the good olde days of degreeinfo.com?

 

Ummm.....what? :bigeyes:

 

Sigh.....^

Then...

 

I thought you were referring to the act, not the law. In any case, as I stated before, consenting people committing sodomy impacts me and the country exactly zero percent. The exact opposite for illegal aliens.

 

So then lack of percieved victim...

Funny....most druggies I know consider their crime victimless too, I guess we should just cut those suckers loose and make room for the illegals.