Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by LearningAddict, Jul 28, 2019.
I believe the consensus a while back was that this is a subgroup of CHEA and meaningless in terms of CHEA recognition.
I clicked on the link for the referenced memorandum but the item had moved (and I did not feel like searching for it).
I didn't think it would mean anything in terms of recognition with ASIC being UK-based and not recognized as a U.S. accreditor. But I found it interesting that they would be on any sort of quality group along with other respected organizations given how they're viewed by a good number of people.
As an aside, I wonder what it would take for them to get on the UK Government's approved list and be officially recognized? I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be there, I'm just curious about what it would take.
This might begin to answer your question
Well they are "officially recognized" by UK Visas and Immigration, but academic oversight is not part of the job. Their job in UK is to detect immigration-related problems in (mostly) non-degree schools. And THAT has not been without problems. http://immigrationwatchcanada.org/2009/06/29/man-given-job-of-closing-down-bogus-colleges-was-sacked-by-university/
Outside of UK - as people who know this stuff cold have told us time and time again - they have no remit whatsoever.
Right, I'm aware of those things, but I'm talking about this list:
I'd say ASIC wants academic oversight to be their job given how they've been presenting themselves and operating over the past few years. Or, maybe it's just easier for them to operate how they do by not being on the list.
The UK's system is very interesting. So aside from the QA bodies the UK lists, there are these other entities that aren't listed but are operating without issue with the UK Government to fulfill a specific role. But, then in ASIC's case, they are fulfilling the role they were allowed but also going beyond that without being officially listed by the UK Government. The UK Government does not appear to officially recognize ASIC's academic reaches, but they also don't appear to have any desire to stop it either, otherwise they would have by now.
It's funny how I find this all jumbled but I go to UK and Canadian boards and they say our system is jumbled to them. To me, the U.S. system is pretty straightforward, but a lot of people in other countries tend to get confused on the NA-RA accreditation model.
They don't need to stop it. ASIC does what it's supposed to do in the UK - mostly with non-degree granting schools. UK Government made that possible. ASIC International accredits the offshore schools - and has nothing to do with the UK operations . Who (in UK) cares what happens offshore?
A British school that does not have degree-granting permission can't legally award a UK degree - period. No amount of certificates by third parties changes that. I think that's a pretty simple provision. And a good one.
Great sense of humor, LA!
Without over-emphasizing, underlining, or repeating things you already clearly know (lol), it's important to point out that some ASIC schools in the UK do grant degrees, but those schools are able to do it because they are on the UK's list, or they are not on the list but are having their degrees issued through a school that is on the list. There is at least one school where I question their ability to issue degrees because they don't fit any of those parameters, but for the time being I'll just figure that there is some association they are under that isn't immediately recognizable.
Admittedly, I just had a quick look at the schools in ASIC's UK directory, so I might be missing something but I didn't see any school that is a recognised body.
Allow me to expand on my earlier post a bit:
Magna Carta College (listed body) has their MA degrees awarded through The University of Portsmouth (recognized body).
Then there are cases such as Stratford College of Business and Management Sciences (not listed or recognized) offering a top-up to an MBA to be awarded through The University of Northhampton (recognized body), and London College of Professional Studies (not listed or recognized), but awarding degrees through The University of Chichester (recognized body). It may not be available on their site yet (haven't looked since I was told), but LCPS will soon be offering degrees through Anglia Ruskin University (recognized body) as well.
The official website says
"Recognized bodies are higher learning institutions that can award degrees.
Listed bodies cannot award degrees themselves. If you study a degree course at a listed body, your degree will be awarded by a recognized body."
So in this case, Magna Carta College offers coursework or other instruction, but doesn't award degrees. The University of Portsmouth awards U. of P. degrees to those who complete the Magna Carta College program.
To the best of my knowledge, all British universities that award their own degrees by law fall under the oversight of the QAA. I believe that primary responsibility for 'validation' arrangements in which a university deputizes other schools to offer instruction leading to award of its degrees is primarily the responsibility of the degree-awarding university, but management of these arrangements also falls under the scope of the QAA's assessment of that university.
I believe that these arrangements between universities and colleges can be pretty fluid and subject to change. There may also be some time-lag between universities forming these relationships and the relationships being officially recognized by whoever does that. (The UK keeps reorganizing and renaming these offices.) So the official website also says
"If your university or college is not listed, contact the Office for Students to check that they're officially recognized."
I'm not sure what you're attempting to correct:
If a degree is being awarded *through* another entity, that other entity is the one awarding the degree. Maybe I could say "by" instead of "through", but it's clear enough as-is regarding the arrangement.
And like any other situation, it's up to the student to perform due diligence as always, but this is as simple as contacting the recognized body to confirm knowledge of the arrangement and contacting the UK Government to close the loop.
So what will the degrees from these programs have written on them? I mean, if you take LCPS' degree program, will the diploma state any affiliation with LCPS?
It will not state any affiliation with LCPS. It will state only the official body the degree is being awarded through. For example, if you finish a LCPS degree program, your diploma would be printed with "The University of Chichester" or "Anglia Ruskin University".
OK, I think I understand now. It's like how in the United States a course provider like edX is not accredited itself but offers a program where the certificate or degree is issued from an accredited school. Makes sense.
I was trying to clarify that as a "listed body", Magna Carta College isn't legally authorized to award UK degrees. So it isn't a matter of them having "their MA degrees" awarded "through" anyone else. What Magna Carta does is provide a course of instruction that, if completed, leads to the graduate being awarded a U. of Portsmouth degree.
(No, I don't know what's written on the diploma, I would guess that it has "University of Portsmouth" across the top but names "Magna Carta College" somewhere beneath where the name of the degree and the subject of the degree go.)
Point being that I'm not aware that ASIC (I haven't examined every UK school on their list) accredits any UK school that's a "recognized body" empowered to award its own degrees. Even if it did, it would be kind of superfluous. My understanding is that all British degree-granters ("recognized bodies") by law fall under the academic quality assurance oversight of the QAA.
Yeeeaaah, you're getting into semantics and repeating things that were already clear. It is their MA degree program (a program specifically set up to lead to an MA degree), it's not a hopscotch program leading to a hopscotch trophy, it's a degree program. The degree is awarded "through", "by", (not interested in the semantics of that, it's obvious what was meant) another entity. Nothing more to it.
I don't think any further clarification was necessary, no one was unclear on any of that. I also don't think I would've needed to explain the difference between what a listed body and what a recognized body can and can't do because I'm sure Mbwa Shenzi already knows this, not to mention it's written at the UK Government site which I have read long before this discussion and I'm sure Mbwa Shenzi has as well.
As far as what's written on the diploma, I spoke only to the LCPS program because that's the one I know of directly. My information is accurate. If there is any question, contact the school, they are very helpful. They'll give you the same answer.
Finally, ASIC's accredited institution list has changed many times. I've seen a school on it one month, and then they're gone from it the next or sooner. I'm not interested in tracking down or trying to recall which schools have come and gone and then matching them to the list just to prove a point, I also haven't been checking through the list as I type, this is all from memory in terms of watching what they do.
Honestly, I was unclear on a lot of things, lol. But, I understood what you were saying about the setup, that was actually the only thing I wasn't unclear on, though I can understand how someone might see it differently.
The UK system is not something I've ever paid much attention to because it's never been relevant to my educational pursuits, although in hindsight seeing how little some of these foreign schools charge compared to schools in the United States, I almost wish I had paid more attention to it except I'm more than happy with the routes I took as they've paid off far more than I could've ever dreamed. I've had an amazing career and this site had a good hand in it because of all of the resources available, and it certainly came in handy back when search engines weren't as powerful as they are today.
On a funny note, this conversation reminds me of an episode of Ask The Pastor on TCT many years ago. The topic was about Bible translations and how each had different ways of wording the same thing. They focused on different scriptures and one was regarding John 14:6 and the importance of understanding it as a central part of prayer, forgiveness, and salvation. One Pastor was reading from the King James version of the Bible which says "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." The other Pastor was reading from the NIV which says "Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The moderator noticed how each Pastor emphasized the words and said "By... through... either way, it's a COME'IN TO JESUS MOMENT!" and everybody laughed. LOL! Classic.
Separate names with a comma.