Ashworth College now part of the National Transfer Network

Thank you Kizmet. You got what I was trying to say. Others don't and perhaps never will.

 

I don't understand what's the problem with presenting RA alternatives that meet the same needs as the NA schools being considered. An NA degree might suffice for some, but an RA degree will do the same. If two programs meet the criteria of the individual, then why not choose the one with regional accreditation? Why not be prepared for any possible changes that might occur? If you're on a forum giving advice to people, I believe you are obligated to warn people about the limitations of degrees from certain schools. If someone still wants to choose an NA school after being presented with all of the arguments, then that is fine. I've come across too many mid-career, working adults who were devastated when they found out about the limitations of their degrees and wish someone would have given them ample warning.

I had two students, one who was almost 30 and one who was in her early 30s, who flushed $19k down the drain on a certificate program at an NA school. One wanted to become a social worker, and the only social work program in the area would not accept credits from an NA school. Another student did not want to finish her bachelor's at Devry or University of Phoenix, the only two RA schools in the area that would accept our school's credits. She started from scratch at a community college. I will not apologize for doing my best to fully inform people even if it hurts the feelings of NA proponents.

You make your arguments, others will make theirs. Let people who come to this forum make their decision after being presented with both sides.

 

Case in point. You make your points and everyone else is not thorough, incomplete or simply wrong. You do not listen to any other arguments except those that coincide with your own. So yeah let others make their arguments and listen to them instead of turning a deaf ear to anyone that doesn't agree with you.

 

I'm debating other people's arguments, so, yeah, I am listening. If I disagree, then I disagree. I don't really need to listen because I don't need this advice for myself. But, if I'm debating with a person, then I am listening and disagreeing. You seem to not be listening to my arguments because you aren't doing anything to try to refute or acknowledge them. You're just complaining.

 

If someone says they're looking at the University of Phoenix I will typically tell them that there are good quality alternatives that will cost them less money. Sometimes that conversation will drift into talking about the general reputation of for-profit schools as well. Personally I would not attend that school but it's obvious that many others disagree. If the person goes ahead and enrolls at Phoenix then I assume that there is either another, unspoken, component to their decision (like maybe they just LOVE those red socks). In any case I have long since given up the goal of trying to get people to change their mind.

 

I agree that unless you are rich it is not worth it but everyone is missing the point - the original argument for "prestige" was a reason not to go to an NA school.

I don't think anyone here will argue that the popular RA schools recommended on this board have any real "prestige", let alone any of the 80 or so partnered with StraighterLine. They are good schools but clearly do not jump off your resume like an Ivy League would, so I would argue "prestige" is an irrelevant reason not to attend an NA school.

 

Ironically you just argued the opposite, that none of the 4 had a bachelor's in construction management. I still do not see how your new argument is an issue since you have 43 bachelor degrees options at APU and 22 at WGU.

Accepting NA credits and accepting your entire degree are two different things. Regardless, I have never argued that you should limit yourself to those RA schools only that they were available and it made the transfer process more seamless. Saying something was available before the partnership is not helpful if this information was not easily accessible to those seeking it. The partnership makes this process easy.

 

I thought you were complaining about limiting your degree options? Pattern only offers 2 associate degrees and 8 bachelors and their payment plan is actually different. You can complete as many courses as you can in one term (4 months) for as low as $1316. So if you took an average of 5 courses per term for four terms that would be $5264, which is almost double Ashworth's $2910. Sure you could be some kind of course taking maniac and get more done per term (unlikely) but Ashworth allows you up to four years to complete your associates, while the longer you take with Patten the more it costs. If anything the more I look at Patten's system the less I like it since it is higher stress to complete as many courses as possible per term.

So I would argue there are no RA alternatives that are cost comparable to schools like Penn Foster and Ashworth.

I thought one of the arguments for doing all of this was not to go into debt (I am not talking about grants)? Again, here is my argument - if you can save literally thousands of dollars getting an NA degree and then transfer it to an RA school why waste time with financial aid?

 

Because of cost.

The only empirical evidence I can find for a limitation to an NA degree is academia and government jobs. Instead I read a lot of fear-mongering with nothing to back it up but unsubstantiated anecdotes. Don't get me wrong, I generally believe your stories but still these are IMO very few incidents that I do not believe are presented in their full context. People read them and get a false impression - that they will never get a job anywhere with an NA degree when in almost all cases those incidents were for government jobs.

But this is silly, we are talking about a $2100 associates degree. I completely agree on steering people away from schools like Devry and University of Pheonix but only because of the outrageous costs. For example, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the estimated costs for an 11-month program at Lincoln Tech ($38,000).

I think it is honorable to inform people that an NA degree will hinder them going into academia and the public sector but if this context is not being presented when the advice is given then I believe it is misleading and IMO potentially wasting people's money.

 

This is another myth that does not stand up to examination. On average NA degrees are no more expensive than RA degrees if you look at the least expensive set of RA schools. In fact, some NA degrees are substantially higher cost than their RA equivalents. This has been repeatedly demonstrated and can be seen in multiple threads in our own archives.

 

Which RA schools are cheaper than Penn Foster and Ashworth?

 

If the student really wants a degree in construction management, then his or her needs/desires are not going to be met by those four schools. Some people want to switch majors while others don't.

Easy is not always better. For-profit colleges thrive off of making everything easier from admissions, to enrollment, to applying for financial aid. When people are hand-fed information, they may not become aware of all of their options. For example, many of my former students chose the NA school they attended because they held their hands through the whole admissions and financial aid process. Applying to the Alamo Community Colleges was seen as too complicated. When I told them that the tuition at those CCs was about $2,000 per year, they were shocked. They thought it was normal to spend $19k for a certificate and $28k for an associate's.

Another issue is that the school told them that only Devry and University of Phoenix would accept their degrees. That is true if the students only wanted to attend ground programs. If they were open to attending online programs (honestly, many were uncomfortable with online schooling but some weren't), then they had many more options. Every student should do the research instead of depending on hand-fed information from the school. It really is not that difficult to use Google. If someone can't be bothered with basic research, then he or she does not belong in college.

Penn Foster charges anywhere from $1106 to almost $1700 per semester depending on the program and payment plan chosen (base rate is $79 per credit hour). Competency-based programs are good for those who can work quickly. There are people finishing master's degrees at WGU in 6 months. The coursework at Patten is not structured like the coursework at Penn Foster, Ashworth, and most other schools. You are not forced to complete multiple, graded assignments and quizzes for each course.

When you are on a payment plan, you are in debt. As a matter of fact, a student here on a payment plan complained about not being able to get his or her diploma and transcripts until the balance was $0. When you are in debt directly with the school, you do not have the protections that come with financial aid such as forbearance, deferment, income-based payments, and forgiveness.

The associate's in business at Ashworth is $5,000.
Online College Tuition Comparison - Ashworth College

First of all, I said if the two schools meet the person's needs, which includes cost. Many DEAC schools are rather affordable, but NA schools are not generally cheaper. ACICS and ACCSC schools tend to be more expensive.

It's not just about what employers require when it comes to accreditation. Many licensing boards only accept regional accreditation. Some may require programmatic accreditation. There are many RA schools that may not have the needed programmatic accreditation, however. Some programmatic accreditors do not deal with NA schools, so there is no possible way for the NA school to work toward that accreditation. Additionally, someone might need a master's degree for his or her field. Having an NA degree limits one's options among graduate programs.

Academia and the public sector are not the only areas where people can face problems. Refer to what I said above. Not telling people that completing a certain program could lead to problems with licensing/certification and/or admittance to graduate school is potentially wasting people's money.

 

Many Texas community colleges have in-district tuition rates that are lower than the $79 per credit hour Penn Foster charges. Some New Mexico CCs probably also beat Penn Foster. Considering that an associate's at Ashworth is $5,000 or $67 per credit hour, I would say that the Alamo Community Colleges are cheaper. In-district students pay $1,004 for 15 credits, which is the usual amount of credits students take each semester. That comes out to be a little over $4,000 for an associate's degree. Yes, the Alamo Community Colleges and many other CCs do offer a sizable selection of online programs.
http://www.alamo.edu/uploadedFiles/District/Admissions/pdfs/Fall-2014-Tuition-Fees.pdf

Central Texas College charges in-district students $76 per credit hour. You do have to pay for books at these schools, but the savings one would get over Ashworth and Penn Foster tuition can cover the costs of used textbooks. I bought most of my textbooks used and even received some money back when I returned them to the bookstore. Additionally, I didn't really have to pay for these books out of pocket when I attended ACCD schools. My over $5,000 Pell Grant was more than enough to cover tuition, so I received a large refund check every semester.
College Costs - Central Texas College

NMJC is dirt cheap.
Tuition and Fees - New Mexico Junior College

Clovis CC charges $39 per credit hour to in-district students. Potential college students would be best-served by researching their local options first.
Clovis Community College

 

I forgot to mention that Patten is a Straighterline partner college. Do Ashworth and Penn Foster accept transfer credits Straighterline? I honestly do not know this answer.

 

This is a circular argument we already went over this.

This is the worst and most absurd argument yet. It for-profit schools do it better that only means that non-profits should as well. Why should admissions, enrollment and financial aid be difficult?

Either way you are not making any sense here you are making excuses for people being ignorant and then later on you claim people who cannot do research do not belong in college. So which is it?

Actually it can be incredibly complicated to do research on this as it is not readily available using Google. I know for a fact I can use Google better than almost everyone here and such information will not be readily available to the average person, while much of it will be inaccurate. Not all information returned by Google is reliable and I believe it is irresponsible to suggest this as a solution to people.

Most people cannot do a Masters in six months so this is incredibly misleading. Everything needs to be put in context instead of cherry picking these examples that are unrealistic to the average person just to sell a school. Everything IMO should be presented to someone on a standard time frame (e.g. 2-years for an associates, 4-years for a bachelors etc...) and then with the caveat that you can do it faster.

Of course but this again is misleading since when we are talking about "college debit" we are usually talking about long term debt in the tens of thousands. The people complaining about college debt are not talking about having to pay back $2910. You complain about people not doing research when it is made quite clear in their FAQ that you will not get your diploma until your tuition is paid off. The payments at Ashworth are as low as $59 a month so those protections are irrelevant.

Yeah but you have failed to show any RA schools that are cheaper than Ashworth or Penn Foster.

This whole discussion so far has been about getting an NA associates and transferring to an RA school for a bachelors. Ashworth, APU and WGU all offer masters degrees.

Which licensing boards? What licensing or certification programs?

If this is legitimate problem then it should be presented on a case by case basis not just done regardless of it being necessary or not.

 

So these are all irrelevant if you do not live in the district. All the community colleges in my area are more expensive than Ashworth or Penn Foster. On average they are over $115 per credit.

Once you add in book as fees to NMJC I am skeptical it is much cheaper. Text books even used ones can be incredibly expensive, especially when the college has a special edition only it uses. Also a small minority of people qualify for a Pell Grant.

Also which looks better on a resume, "Ashworth College" or "New Mexico Junior College"? I would have a hard time telling anyone to go there based on the name alone.

Community colleges also usually do not offer self-paced programs. You argued this was a reason that people might not like the format at APU, which I will argue is more flexible than most community colleges.

 

I do not understand the hypocrisy here about accreditation, for-profit schools and financial aid when StraighterLine is not accredited, is for-profit and does not offer financial aid.

 

Really, did you make a statement like this?

 

Yes and I could easily back it up but I am not divulging my background here, as there is much more to Google then simply typing something in the search box. It is irresponsible to tell people to simply use Google for research as most people do not understand how to filter unreliable information and are prone to believing unsubstantiated anecdotes.

 

No please don't divulge anything. Such a bold statement should strike fear in everyone.