Ashworth College now part of the National Transfer Network

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Poptech, Feb 5, 2015.

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  1. novadar

    novadar Member

    My take was that you were saying you are skilled at using Boolean logic and other sub-domain filtering techniques to crawl the web for very precise data in multiple languages if needed.

    I don't believe the advice earlier was that individuals should place all their eggs in a single basket based on the first Google response that comes back. Many on this board have made great contributions to the larger Distance learning community. Sanantone has been an invaluable resource with her degree plans. Very few on this board have any interest in steering folks one way or another.
     
  2. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    No I was not trying to make a pretentious pseudo-technical comment like this.

    Telling anyone they should simply use Google is irresponsible. From what I have read on these boards, the steering is very overt.
     
  3. novadar

    novadar Member

    Not pretentious. When you say you can "use a tool" better than anyone else, I expect you to produce details to back that claim. Using Google well is more than simply typing in a search term. As an IT professional I have training in the algorithms used to derive query results. That allows more precise searches. I am still not brash enough to say "I can use Google better than almost ANYONE on here". Good grief......THAT is pretentious. "Hello Pot you are Black, Love Kettle".
     
  4. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    When you use terms like "Boolean logic" it is pretentious not to mention irrelevant to search in other languages since almost everyone here is only concerned with English.

    Most people do not even know how to properly use basic Google search operators let alone top-level domain filtering, which would be the most advantageous here.
     
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I've applied to many schools and filled out FAFSA on my own for several years. It really isn't that difficult. All of the instructions are usually available on a school's website. Lazy people prefer to have others do everything for them.

    They don't belong in college. I never said they did.


    You use Google better than everyone here, but you couldn't find the information I've found? When you're in college, you have to learn how to discern between what is credible and what is not. It is so easy to peruse a forum or start a thread for suggestions and call up or email the suggested schools to verify. If someone says that Liberty accepts NA credits, all you have to do is go to their website to verify.


    A realistic time-frame at a competency-based school is about half to three-quarters of the time-frame expected at colleges on the semester and quarter systems. Competency-based programs are not based on time-in-class. The average person finishes faster in competency-based programs.


    It's also irrelevant when you're attending a CC that is well under $100 per credit hour.


    Already did that.


    Accountancy and counseling boards would be a start.

    I said people should start by searching their local options. After that, they should expand their search to other public schools in their state. You just keep going until you find something that fits.

    I have attended several schools. The only schools that did not give me the option of purchasing materials wherever I could find them were for-profits. I'm not saying that all for-profits are like this, but most colleges, in general, let you purchase your books anywhere. For my CC courses at ACCD, I did not use their bookstore. I used an unaffiliated bookstore nearby. They also had the option of purchasing online. Last semester for my doctoral program, I found most of my books for less than $5 each on Amazon.

    A junior college is just a community college. Generally, people have a more favorable view of brick and mortar public schools than 100% virtual for-profits.

    Yes, APUS offers no self-paced programs. Many community colleges are starting competency-based programs. Central Texas College has long offered self-paced courses. KCTCS has been offering self-paced courses for a few years. You find these things once you do a little digging instead of rushing straight to the first college that shows you a banner ad.

    Straighterline courses transfer to many RA schools. You're not getting your degree from SL. I was simply making a comparison using cost and transferability between SL, PF, and Ashworth. SL has done more work to find partner colleges. Once you transfer those credits to an RA school's associate's program, SL's lack of accreditation does not matter. As a matter of fact, one could use leftover financial aid at their school to pay for SL courses. Many people already do this.

    There is not only the Pell Grant, but there are state grants when you attend an in-state institution. However, the Pell grant helps more people than you think.

    Pell Grants: The Cornerstone of African-American Higher Education
     
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Poptech, I don't know what your goal is for participating in this community, but if it involves getting other people to listen to you, then I seriously doubt that your obnoxious tone and condescending attitude will help you reach that goal.
     
  7. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    Preferring a more efficient method to handle these tasks is not lazy. The real question should be why has every school not adopted these more efficient methods? Your argument is ridiculous, why should people want to do busy work that wastes their time?

    So what is the purpose of using them as an example?

    Incorrect, I said almost everyone here. I never claimed I could not find that information. My argument is that the information is not readily available or easy to find. This is why partnerships with schools simplifies this process. Notice you referred me to the partner schools of StraighterLine and did not tell me to use Google to figure out which schools take their courses as credits.

    Also is someone supposed to check over 4000 U.S. institutions to figure out which ones accept NA credits? How does that make any sense? Is someone lazy for not doing this?

    Empirical evidence?

    The difference can be thousands of dollars.

    No you didn't. Which schools when tuition, all fees and books are added in is cheaper for anyone in the country?

    Evidence? So you have public sector, academia, certain accounting and counseling jobs.

    Why would you have them waste money when they could get a cheaper education with a private school?

    This is all unsubstantiated anecdotes and I do not believe this at all since I have helped many public school college students with books and none of them were less than $60 even used on Amazon. I helped them out by locating some of the books illegally online, most people would be unable to do this.

    Only people in their '60s generally remember that community colleges used to be called junior colleges so it would be a disadvantage in today's economy. I have seen no evidence that someone would value a community college degree over an accredited online degree.

    Next to no community colleges offer competency-based programs. I don't see banner ads so it is not possible for this to be an issue for me.

    I am well aware of how StraighterLine works but that is not my argument. Rather that they are an unaccredited, for-profit corporation that does not offer financial aid. My point is you have no problem recommending them but shun people from NA accredited colleges because they are for-profit and do not support financial aid. You do not see the hypocrisy here?

    Pell Grants help a lot of poor people who are less likely to have an Internet connection, let alone a computer.

    "Students with a total family income up to $50,000 may be eligible for Pell Grants, though most Pell funding goes to students with a total family income below $20,000."

    State grants generally work the same way.
     
  8. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    I find it condescending to tell people to "search Google" when they themselves are unlikely to know how to use it properly or that they are "lazy" because they do not want to deal with public school bureaucracies that have not made it into the 21st century. Why the faux-outrage and double standard?
     
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    No outrage, faux or otherwise. For future reference, outrage LOOKS MORE LIKE THIS!!!!!!1!!!

    As for a double standard, it would only be that if I agreed with you.

    (And where's Levicoff when we need him?)
     
  10. Tireman 44444

    Tireman 44444 Well-Known Member

    Or Rich Douglas?
     
  11. novadar

    novadar Member

    I prefer my outrage "faux" anyway, no cute little cuddly ones are harmed that way.
     
  12. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Students who attend for-profits are more likely to default on their student loans. They should be carefully overlooking this paperwork themselves. Another thing that often makes admissions easier is that for-profits rarely require admissions or placement exams such as the SAT, ACT, COMPASS, or Accuplacer. Some might see this as a good thing, but if the student can barely read or do basic math and there are no remedial courses available, then that student has a very high chance of dropping out after wasting thousands of dollars.


    There are many students like them.


    I have recommended many times on another forum that should people check with their school to see if they accept ACE-approved credits. I found out that Central Texas College accepts some SL courses even though they are not a partner college.

    You still don't get it. The Internet lets you tap into the collective knowledge of thousands of people who have had varying experiences over the years. Forums like this have compiled lists of RA schools that accept NA credits. All one has to do is contact the school of interest to verify the information. This is much better than just relying on the four partner schools offered by Ashworth.


    At WGU, the average time to complete a bachelor's degree is 34 months.
    No Tuition Increase at Western Governors University for 7th Straight Year

    That's only because you don't know how to shop for cheap books.

    Do you really expect me to link to hundreds of licensing boards?


    Because maybe they could get a degree for just as much or less at an RA school allowing for more transferability.


    Really? Here are a couple of books I purchased last semester.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0534624464/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0205461727/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

    I'm in my 20s, and I know what a junior college is. When people are outraged at someone's consideration of a for-profit college, whether right or wrong, they often recommend attending a community college. No, I do not have empirical evidence on the public's perception, but neither do you. But, it's not like the outrage among politicians is mostly directed at junior and community colleges. The outrage is being directed at for-profit colleges.


    Next to no any type of college offers competency-based programs. They are still pretty rare, overall. However, many are starting them up.
    Dozens of Colleges Developing Competency-Based Programs


    This is not what I said at all. If this is all you got out of what I've said, then you've missed the whole point. I have recommended Penn Foster's ACE-approved courses many times over the years. I have also recommended Patten which is a for-profit that does not participate in Title IV.


    Financial aid can and often is used to help students purchase books and needed equipment and software. How do I know? I came from a poor family that depended on government assistance. Attending school online made it easier to work, which is something poor kids often have to do when they come from poor families. For-profit colleges have a disproportionate share of economically disadvantaged students. They also tend to be more expensive than public colleges. This means that there is less financial aid leftover to help with expenses.
    For-Profit Colleges | Lawrence Katz
     
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    This turned into some weird personality thing. Truth is, Ashworth in particular offers inexpensive programs that serve many students very well. For many students, on the other hand, it would be prudent to pick a regionally accredited option instead. There's no hard and fast rule.
    Example: a friend of mine is enrolled in an Ashworth degree program right now, partly on my suggestion. They needed a legitimate, four-semester program "related to Early Childhood Education" that can be completed extremely quickly (literally, required "two years ago"); they also needed to enroll and show progress extremely quickly. So far, it works well.
    As the degree is in progress, they didn't try it out with the regulator. On paper, it satisfies the requirements, but there's always risk of a nasty surprize. In this case, we'll transfer parts of it to Excelsior using their case-by-case process and finish there (some $$). Had we more time to plan, would I rather recommend COSC or Excelsior? maybe, but then we don't know if they'll be OK with a degree in "Liberal Studies". But if it works out, Ashworth would then fill a tremendous need. In any case, I will have a nice little case study on DEAC degree utility in Canada, which I'll share with the board :)
     
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator


    To me this comes across as the voice of reason.
     
  15. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Amen to that.:cool:
     
  16. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    All the more reason for them not to get into that kind of debt with financial aid. Have you met the average community college student? I don't believe they are carefully looking over any paperwork. The real reason they are defaulting IMO is because of the size of the debt, which would not be an issue if they attended a low cost accredited school like Ashworth or Penn Foster.

    At Penn Foster, "All degree applicants are required to complete two Basic Skills Assessments, one in reading and one in math, to determine the level of readiness for beginning their selected program. Additional studies may be required."

    Skill assessments can be a time waster for those who have been out of school for a while but IMO necessary for the students you are referring to.

    Regardless the problem here is the High School system that allowed someone to graduate without being able to read or do basic math. And in many cases they should be pushed towards vocational training.

    From my readings of these boards, this is not the type of student catered to here.

    ACE should instead create a master list of schools that accept their courses for credit. Just like I believe the NA accreditation agencies should. Partnerships are the next best thing as at least they give you some information.

    This is naive, the information on the Internet is frequently inaccurate if it does not come from a reliable source. I would not trust any of those lists as they have been shown to be inaccurate on various occasions and a lot of the comments here are unsubstantiated anecdotes yet the average person might believe them anyway. You keep saying "just contact the school" but it is not reasonable to contact over 4000 schools. No one is saying just rely on those partner schools, what I am saying is they are available contrary to many of the dismissive recommendations I have read here.

    That is an average, which means there are people taking longer. So this needs to be presented in its full context.

    Oh please, unlike you I have helped people not pay anything for almost all of their text books (exceptions being special editions for the school) since I can find most of them for free.

    Your books are 6-9 years old. The public schools I am helping people with do not use texts older than 2 years.

    You have not provided anything to back up your argument. The handful that matter are ones like Architectural, Medical and Law. I believe it is more helpful to make a realistic list instead of trying to use fear-mongering with blanket statements.

    You have failed to demonstrate this unless you live in very specific regions of the country.

    People make this mistake all the time and try to assume their personal experience or knowledge is more widely held. There should only be outrage if fraud is being committed not because people are too ignorant to read the contracts they sign.

    Now you are contradicting yourself as you just claimed that "Many community colleges are starting competency-based programs."

    That is good to hear but my argument is that you do not need ACE-approved courses to get NA credits to transfer to RA schools.

    My argument is purely on cost. Saying for-profit colleges tend to more expensive than public colleges is misleading since the cheapest schools anyone can attend nationally are also for-profit (Ashworth and Penn Foster). Why would you need financial aid if you can make $59 a month payments on a $2900 degree?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2015
  17. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Well, I went to class with many community college students, and I was one. You seem to have this issue with people suggesting alternatives. Are you suggesting that every potential college student should just go to Ashworth or Penn Foster? What is wrong with looking at alternatives?


    I would have to take the skills test or look at it before forming an opinion on it since it is an internal test that is not available to the public to study. The for-profit I taught at required a proficiency exam. Just about all of the instructors complained about having functionally illiterate students. So much for that proficiency exam.


    There have been many threads over the years started by someone who attended a school that did not meet his or her needs (usually cost and flexibility), so they came here to look for other options. Obviously, these people did not thoroughly investigate the school before choosing it and did not explore all of their other options. Since they have become wiser and learned how to research, they are now better prepared for college.


    ACE does have a list of schools that are in their network, but many of them only accept ACE credits from the military. CHEA used to have the HETA list where participating schools were basically expressing that they would consider transfer credits from any school with recognized accreditation. If DEAC and the other NA accrediting organizations want to make themselves look better, they should take it upon themselves to create these lists.


    Why is this so hard to understand? You contact the schools on the suggested lists. There is no need to contact 4,000 schools. You will still come up with many more schools than the four in Ashworth's partner agreement. I've investigated many of the schools that are often listed. Most of them DO accept NA credits.


    Of course it does, but it is a measure of central tendency. I never said that all students finish faster.


    You mean obtain them illegally.

    One thing a person learns from experience is that the past edition or two is usually not much different from the current edition.


    We've just covered the main professional occupations where people seek licensure: counseling, accounting, architecture, law, and medicine. However, programmatic accreditation is more important in law and the healthcare fields. I'll throw teaching in there because even some private schools want teacher certification and many boards require RA. I'm not talking about fields like cosmetology and plumbing where you don't even need a degree.
    Educational Requirements | Illinois Board of Examiners
    Endorsement | North Carolina Board of Licensed Professional Counselors
    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching/licensure/info_out-of-state_online_programs.pdf
    http://sos.ri.gov/documents/archives/regdocs/released/pdf/DOH/7030.pdf
    Apply for License - Maryland Board of Examiners of Landscape Architects

    There are cheap community colleges all over the country. The average cost of a community college tuition is around $3,000 per year. Like when you said that someone can take longer than average, well, some schools will be cheaper than average. What is wrong with someone simply looking for a better option? Why should they just go straight to Penn Foster or Ashworth assuming that those are the cheapest and best options?

    Politicians aren't passing new regulations on for-profit colleges just because a couple of constituents complained. Whether they are right or wrong for taking these actions, they do look at the number of defaults and see that thousands of students have been affected by the predatory practices of schools like ITT Tech and Everest College.


    How is that a contradiction? There is a difference between currently offering and starting up a program. Many community colleges are starting competency-based programs, but they might not be available right at this moment.


    ACE-approval gives you more options. Normally, I recommend that people take the individual courses that they need and transfer them to another school that accepts ACE-approved credits. They benefit from the lower cost of that particular PF course and having an RA degree.

    It's misleading to say that PF and Ashworth are the only cheap options out there. The $2900 degree is an Ashworth special. PF charges $79 per credit hour, which is in the same price range as many CCs. You know, some people can't even afford $59 per month. I've been in that situation before. Why would I pay $59 per month when I can receive a $5,000 Pell Grant that I don't have to pay back to attend a CC for free? Even if I were to take out $4,000 in student loans to pay for an associate's degree at a CC, I could make arrangements with the government to temporarily stop or adjust my payments, which would already be low with just a $4,000 loan. While paying back that loan, I will have access to my transcripts and diploma. I'm not advocating that people should take out a $4,000 loan if they can afford a payment plan, but I know that not everyone can afford $59 a month, which is not even something that is guaranteed to be offered to future students.
     
  18. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Do you know that the information you are providing could be inaccurate (well, it is)? You're telling people that they should just go straight to Ashworth or PF because they are the absolute cheapest options out there for everyone. You're essentially telling people that they should take your word for it and not even bother with looking at the tuition rates of other colleges. This strong opposition to people taking a little bit of time to investigate their options for something as important as a college degree is just irrational. There is no good argument against this.
     
  19. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    I have no issue with suggesting alternatives, I have an issue with not giving people all their options which IMO includes NA and for-profit schools. Where did I make any such ridiculous suggestion about Ashworth and Penn Foster?

    Your argument was that these were effectively not given at for-profit schools and when I provide you with an example you now claim the "school" you taught at gave one but the quality was poor. This unsubstantiated anecdote does not invalidate the proficiency exam at Penn Foster.

    But most of the people investigating these options were not the illiterate or numerically challenged individuals you were referring to who were $19k in debt for a cert.

    This is not what I am referring to as ACE does not have a list of all schools that accept their approved courses for credit. "Consider" and "accept" are two different things and I agree DEAC and other NA accrediting organizations should put this together but until they do these partnership programs are better than nothing. They are certainly easily then contacting over 4000 schools on your own to see which take NA credits.

    What suggested lists? Ones suggested here? Why only these schools? I want complete information from every accredited school in the country. I want to make it easier for people to price shop not give people busy work.

    By presenting it as you did you are indirectly implying it is the norm.

    Technically I don't obtain anything I just give them the option to download something that exists on the Internet. I don't even send them a URL or do the searches myself I just tell them where to look. So who is the better shopper?

    Tried that one time and after someone I knew almost failed the first test they bought the correct edition.

    This is effectively what I said since programmatic accreditation falls under the same top categories. By now you guys should have a highly curated and accurate list you can present to people of the handful of occupations that require RA instead of blanket open-ended statements that are confusing to people.

    Community colleges are hit or miss around the country and most are more expensive than schools like Ashworth and Penn Foster. For the ones that are cheaper I believe it is a good recommendation to go there but again this usually requires living in the district. "Better" is subjective and depends on the wants of the individual. I would argue most people want an accredited degree for the cheapest price they can get.

    "Predatory practices" is an emotionally baseless argument. I don't feel bad for anyone who signs contracts without reading or comprehending them unless it can be demonstrated that it is fraud.

    Because you are using it as an argument against CC not offering these programs. Whether something may be offered in the future is not an argument for what is currently available.

    Maybe but failing to tell them that non-ACE approved NA credits can also be transferred to RA schools is misleading.

    No one said this. I am not saying they are the only cheap options out there but so far you have failed to provide any cheaper alternatives that offer self-paced programs that are available to everyone nationally. Many CC are higher around the country than Ashworth or Penn Foster so that leaves a lot of people who could benefit from a cheaper option but I rarely to never see it presented as one.

    Again, I am not talking about grants. If you can get a government hand-out go for it but I doubt most people who frequent these boards live in a household that make less than $20,000.

    Just to be clear, you have been in a situation where you had no cable TV and no cell phone?

    It may not be guaranteed to be available in the future but these schools have been offering these payment plans for years now.
     
  20. Poptech

    Poptech New Member

    Strawman argument, I said no such thing. Why did you make this ridiculous statement?
     
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