Another question on DL Doctorate and PHD programs

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by pietto, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. pietto

    pietto New Member

    I will be finishing up my MS in Enterprise Information Systems at CTU, have nothing but good things to say, now I am interested in going for my PHD or DBA. I have made the decision to change careers and focus on academia. I have been reading the posts about DL PHD program vs B&M PHD programs and this is what i've learned.

    DL PHD Programs are as good as B&M, but for teaching at a B&M you need a PHD from a B&M
    DL PHD Programs will work fine for 90% of your ventures, but for B&M teaching not so good
    The perception among academics is that a B&M PHD is better than a DL PHD

    Overall if you want to teach in academia get your PHD/DBA at a B&M school. So for me I ve been looking at Case western, Georgia State University does anyone else know of B&M schools that offer an DL option for PHD/DBA
  2. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    Nova is also an option.
  3. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Case Western Reserve (Weatherhead) is certainly B&M; however, their Ph.D's are not DL degree programs, nor is their DM. The DM is a “…three-year lockstep program with an option to pursue the Designing Sustainable Systems track in the PhD in Management Program.” There are 4-residencies per semester, e.g., "Attendance at all on-campus residencies is expected. Residency sessions begin at 8:00 a.m. and conclude at 6:00 p.m., except Saturdays when sessions begin at 8:00 a.m. and conclude at 4:00 p.m."

    Mark Your Calendar for 2010 Doctor of Management Events - Weatherhead School of Management
  4. consultco

    consultco New Member

  5. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    I doubt that you will be able to teach at a B&M university with a degree that has been earned online, even if it is from a B&M school that offers DL. Unless you are willing to lie and otherwise cover your tracks, they will find out that your degree is DL. They will at least most likely ask and probably check by other means as well. The prejudice against DL degrees runs pretty deep. It is ironic that most B&M schools who offer DL degrees will not in turn hire someone with one. It's rather hypocritical, but unfortunately it's most often the case.

    Also, getting a university job is extremely difficult even with a B&M degree. There are a great many people who have a similar idea as you do, and many are attempting to land the very few jobs that are available at universities.

    I'm sorry to offer such a negative report, but it's better to know these things up front.
  6. thyslip

    thyslip New Member

    Dakota State University, Dakota State University, Madison, SD, has a Doctor of Science in Information Systems. Also, check out Indiana State Univeristy, they have a phd in Technology Management. Good luck. I chose DSU, waiting to hear if I got accepted. I am having the same dilema as you, I want to teach when I retire from law enforcement, but can't do a B&M full time phd, so i went the DL route. Hopefully overtime, they will be more accepted.
  7. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    Don't get your hopes up. It may happen, but it will be a long process. I learned about this first hand when I spoke personally to the deans at a few B&M schools. I was in the same mind set as you, but changed my mind after talking with a number of people. DL degrees are readily accepted almost everywhere except academia and they are vehemently dishonored in those circles. I had deans willing to talk to me until they found out that my doctorate would be DL, after that, they would not even speak to me. It was as though I had suddenly contracted leprosy.

    With a DL degree, you can work as an online adjunct at the online schools. You can also sometimes work as an adjunct at a community college, but that's about it. Don't expect any tenure track professorships at a B&M university. Maybe someday, but not anytime soon.

    It's not because of any lack of quality on the DL side; it's about prejudice against DL in the B&M institutions. Academia is a rather nepotistic system where outsiders, specifically DL doctorates, are not welcome.

    The one thing that might change this is publication. If you are able to get some of your research published in one of the major academic journals, you would gain quite a lot of clout and that might be enough for you to be considered by a dean.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2011
  8. Gbssurvivor1

    Gbssurvivor1 Member

    Dont get to depressed...

    I also agree that it would be nice to have the option of teaching at a B&M state school or the like. Yet, I have been an online adjunct for the past few years and I make as much in 6 weeks as most community college instructors make over a normal semester. Now I am not entirely familiar with the salaries of professors at the traditional universities but I would imagine that they are not a great deal better. I am sure there are exceptions but there will always be a need for more and more online adjuncts as all of the B & M schools move to online as well. Just my 2 cents and my effort to see the glass half full... :dunno:
  9. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    That is encouraging news and I'm glad to hear you are doing well. You are fortunate, and I'm sure quite talented, in that you have been able to get and keep adjunct jobs. It's not like that for everyone, in fact, I am aware of one adjunct job where there were over 100 applicants for each position. The prospects appear to have tightened up quite a bit in the past several years and getting noticed usually requires that one hold a doctorate, or at least considerable past experience, to get an adjunct job. Most of the adjunct jobs that I am aware of are not highly paid; you must have really found a great gig! Kudos to you!
  10. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Actually, tenure-track faculty at major universities can make quite a bit more than community college instructors.

    Are you comparing adjunct rates or adjunct online : full-time community college?
  11. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, tenured professors can often make 6 figures and over. I doubt any online adjunct jobs will come close to that. If you know of any that do, could I please have their phone number? :smile:
  12. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    I'm going to have to disagree with this. In my experience, a bigger issue is the subject being taught and the status of the B&M university that you are applying to work at.

    Personally, I know MANY MANY people that have taught at B&M universities with DL doctorates. As an example, look at the faculty listing for Dakota State's DSc in IS. A lot of their faculty earned their PhD's from Capella, yet they are teaching at a B&M school.

    The state university I used to work at hired people for TENURE TRACK positions because they were enrolled in doctoral programs like UoP or Walden.

    Keep in mind, we are talking about a 4th tier university, not a top tier, big name school. Also, these folks were teaching in high demand fields (nursing, IT), not history or English. My bet is that the business school would have taken DL PhDs and D.B.A.s as well, considering how much they were hurting for doctorally prepared faculty. Now, did the administration like having to take candidates who had DL doctorates? No, they would have preferred B&M doctorates. Heck, they would have preferred Ivy league PhDs with a long track record of research and publications. However, beggars can't be choosers, and in some fields, some universities are essentially begging for doctorally prepared faculty.
  13. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think this is the case in the current environment. Maybe these many people you speak of who work at B&M's with a DL doctorate already had positions at the school when they earned their DL doctorate or had a great deal of experience in the industry, in either case, these people would be more likely to be welcomed. The sad fact is that most universities, and I have spoken to many deans or their assistants, are not interested in DL doctorate holders. To prove or disprove this point, try talking to someone at a B&M and see if you get the same responses I did.

    I would love to be proven wrong on this debate because I have similar career goals. So you see that I am not trying to be a stick in the mud; I'm just trying to warn my fellow DL members.
  14. japhy4529

    japhy4529 House Bassist

    What about DL PhDs earned from foreign schools (e.g. UK, OZ, SA, etc.)? Would degree holders from this demographic face the same prejudices as DL PhDs from US schools?
  15. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    I'm interested in that answer, as well.
  16. bpreachers

    bpreachers New Member

    I wonder how military experience would stack up with this. I am a 9502 sailor meaning a Naval Instructor (on top of my many other hats). I will be pursuing a MBA soon and then plan to pursue a DL DBA shortly after. I wonder if having 20 years of service with 15 holding the instructor training code would alleviate some of the prejudice against a Distance Learning Doctorate degree.
  17. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Like I said before, it completely depends on your field and the status of the school. If you are looking for a position with a university's education department and you only have a DL Ed.D., you may have problems. Why? Because there are a TON of people looking to teach education at the university level with doctorates, even at low tier schools. The competition is enormous.

    However, lets say you are a nurse with a master's degree who is doing a PhD via DL (this is an area I have the most experience in). In a large city, you have a good chance of finding a tenure track position in a 4th tier school. Why? Because there is an absolutely MASSIVE shortage of nursing professors, let alone doctorally prepared nursing professors. The situation is only getting worse, because a huge percentage of nursing profs are baby-boomers, and they are rapidly retiring. This is the current situation with at least a few schools that I know of RIGHT NOW.

    To top it off, many baccalaureate nursing programs are trying to start masters degree programs. However, the accreditation agencies (AACN and CCNE) won't allow it without a certain percentage of doctorally prepared faculty. This puts even more pressure on the school to hire doctorally prepared faculty. Then add the fact that nurses can make so much money outside of academia due to the nursing shortage, and it further shrinks the pool of eligible instructors. There MAY be something similar happening with subjects like accounting and finance, as well, but I do not have as much first hand experience there.
  18. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, thank you; I read your previous post. I concur with your statements, however, outside of nursing, accounting and a very few other fields, it's highly unlikely that a career changing individual who holds a DL doctorate would be hired as a professor at a B&M school. Even in those impacted fields, an individual who holds a B&M degree in the subject would most likely be preferred over one who holds a DL degree, if there were those choices available. There are always exceptions, but the general fact remains. I am speaking from specific, personal research on the subject.
  19. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    Also, please note that I personally hold three degrees that were earned via distance education. I am a great supporter of DL and I believe that it will slowly, over the next couple of decades, become accepted in academia. However, I am also a realist and I do not wish to create false hope in members who are contemplating the large investment of time and money involved in earning a distance doctorate degree.
  20. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Perhaps for community college. For a university, I doubt it would make any difference. There is a distinct elitism that is present in academia, and I do not see the average academic placing any stock in military instruction. You might find a few exceptions in universities that have large military populations or have strong ties to the military.

    In your situation, you have two stigmas to overcome: DL and for-profit. I don't see that going well with you for a B&M institution.

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