Another question on DL Doctorate and PHD programs

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by pietto, Feb 8, 2011.

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  1. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    Do you need an apprentice aka gopher bitch? I'll be finishing the MBA in a couple months.
     
  2. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    If I may, I’d like to provide the perspective as one who has sat on many hiring boards during my 23 years in higher ed and who now oversees and hires faculty. I work for a doctoral granting RA University and one of our doctorates is DL.

    The degree is only one piece of the puzzle and is usually not the most important piece. Faculty are hired primarily on the basis of their experience in the higher ed “trinity”: Teaching, Scholarship and Service. Someone with a brand new minted Ph.D. (regardless of the school) who has no record of successful teaching, publications, conference presentations, activity in professional associations and academic/community service, will have a hard time competing in the academic market.

    It is very true that the academic discipline matters a lot. An English, sociology or education Ph.D. will be vying against many more candidates than an accounting Ph.D.

    There are a large number of successful academics at B & M schools with DL doctorates I know a lot of them personally). However, in most every case in which I have personal knowledge, they were hired in their positions with masters degrees and obtained their doctoral degree later. In every case, the DL doctorate was accepted by their B & M school for promotion and tenure of faculty and the promotion of administration.

    As has been stated many times, the lowest acceptance for DL doctorates is for full-time tenure-track positions at B & M universities. This will change as the current generation of Deans and Chairs retire (I am already seeing this at other institutions), but it will take a while. Administrative positions and community college positions have a much higher rate of DL doctorate acceptance. Only two of the applicants for our Ph.D. program expressed interest in applying for a full-time university faculty position. In both of those cases, our Associate Dean counseled that this goal would be better met by pursuing a traditional program with AACSB accreditation. Our Ph.D. students, by and large, are already employed and are pursuing the Ph.D for other reasons.
     
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The question is why you bother with a DBA from NCU if you are making this kind of money. I suppose that the hours you put into the program were more expensive than the actual cost of the degree.
    I believe that some do the program just for personal satisfaction or just to use the title dr on a business card.
    I suppose that in your case, you wouldn't bother to work even as an online adjunct for the ridiculous sum (almost insulting) of $20 to $30 dlls an hour.
     
  4. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    When I first began the NCU program back in 2003, I only made about 50k a year. Times change, people change and circumstances change. Nothing remains stagnant, except for dimwits and ponds. As we grow older, we tend to grow in knowledge and wisdom, which may fortuitously aide us. And yes, I also continue to work as an online adjunct professor, but I limit myself to one class at a time and do it primarily for the resume. I only made 27k doing it, but it's an excellent resume booster.
     
  5. distancedoc2007

    distancedoc2007 New Member

    Very well said. The other unspoken truth is that a side-door doctorate doesn't equate to social mobility in academic circles. If you haven't been steeped in the smarmy, politically and socially correct cultures of academia, you will stick out like a sore thumb and probably not have much of a chance. You may have the same letters after your name, but if you are up against someone who has the veneer of having been brought up in the system, you won't likely win. This is why community colleges are a much better target for most people in my opinion. There is a far greater track record there of people coming from modest working backgrounds and gaining advanced eduaction while on the job.
     
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Congratulation! 50K to 800K is quite a jump in less than 10 years.
     
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I have a friend who's done with his PhD in Finance from an AACSB accredited school. He's done it on campus full time and is just about to submit everything and be done with it. He's been looking for a tenure track Assistant Professor position, and has found it surprisingly difficult. He has teaching and administrative experience, a school should want to snap him up.

    The bottom line is that a lot of time on these forums people think of an AACSB accredited doctorate earned on campus as some sort of golden ticket, but it's not necessarily so.

    -=Steve=-
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    This just goes to show you how hard finding a position is at all. DL-earned docs are at a further disadvantage.
     
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It takes a while to find something. The academic market is limited. Many do few years as a post doc or visiting appointments before they find something more stable.

    However, business still better than a lot of fields. In science and engineering, it is normal to see people taking 5 years of post doc appointments before they land something tenure track.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2011
  10. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    True, that is why a significant audience for DL doctorates are people who are already working in academia or are already in a middle management position in a business. DL doctorates were designed for mid-career adults, not for 20-somethings who just finished their masters and are looking for that first assistant professor gig.
     
  11. BizProf

    BizProf New Member

    This is absolutely true in some business-related fields. There are universities out there who cannot fill positions for which they're offering $120K or more to start. Searches are failing across the country, it's getting to the point in some fields where the top-tier schools are bidding up the price of new PhDs and ABDs to obscene levels and snatching up all the newly-minted PhDs, and very legit B&M universities are having to make do with adjuncts and non-tenure track instructors as they cannot attract anyone who's academically qualified for a TT position. This is the case with accounting, finance, and it's being said by the AACSB that the situation will only get worse. It's a Catch-22, because universities can't ramp up or increase the size of PhD programs to fill the need because they don't have enough qualified professors in those fields to supervise them. If someone can find a way to take five years off and get through a PhD program in Accoutining or Finance, they will be almost guaranteed $150K or more to start by the time they finish. Or if someone could get a DL degree in one of those fields from an AACSB school or its equivalent overseas, they might well be able to break into a very lucrative field.
     
  12. BizProf

    BizProf New Member

    What sort of work do you do? Business consulting? Executive with a GF500? Super-high-end sales (e.g., selling jumbo jets)? Commodities trading? Broker? Entrepreneur?

    Because if you're garnering upwards of $400/hr, that's of course over half a million a year for anything approaching full time work. I've known top-notch sales execs who worked their butts off and made close to that kind of money, but without job security (only as good as your last quarter); I've worked for entrepreneurs who made in the range of seven figures per annum, but they always seems half an inch from bankruptcy as well if things went a little off for a coupkle quarters.

    Just wondering what you do, doubting you a bit, willing to be proven wrong.
     
  13. BizProf

    BizProf New Member

    This is truly shocking to me. I'm very inclined to doubt it or to wonder about what's going on with your friend. Bad breath? Long criminal history? Or perhaps he's aiming only at R1 major unis. There are positively jobs and shortages in finance. I know, trust me.
     
  14. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    So we've heard about the difficulty of securing a TT job with a doctorate earned via DL. What about via part-time study? George Washington University is AACSB accredited and will allow you to pursue your PhD in business part-time. I'd seriously consider doing a PhD in accounting part-time if I lived in the DC area. So what say you, could someone get a TT position at an AACSB accredited school with the part-time doctorate at GWU?
     
  15. BizProf

    BizProf New Member

    I absolutely think they could. Solid state universities are throwing $125K+ at twenty-somethings with graduate work from lesser-known schools who are not even finished with their PhD program. George washington is a very solid university, given the current market, anyone with a PhD in accounting in hand from them, PT, FT, DL, whatever, would have multiple offers from which to choose before they even completed the program. This is a fait accomli. I also have to think that someone with an accounting doctorate from a solid foreign school (think good UK, South African, Australian schools), whether earned DL or on ground, could be very competitive if they had taken steps to establish themselves in the field before going on the market, such as getting CPA certification and, more importantly, working on serious academic scholarship and presenting at conferences.

    One thing that I think people who aspire to tenture track academia waste their time on here is worrying about this or that school from which they can obtain a DL doctorate when they should really be worrying, at least initially, about making a name for themselves in a given field. If someone had a doctorate in accounting from any legitimate foreign school who's country followed IFRS and several publications in accounting journals in the U.S., I can bet they'd land a $130K job upon or prior to defense of thesis. If you want a tenure track job in business academia, focus on getting to know people in a field and publishing first, then work out the details of the doctorate. Hey, a DL MBA, so long as AACSB or big league overseas like U of London plus a CPA and a bit of teaching experience will land you squarely in non-TT academia @ $60K+/-, you can then, once through the door, work on the pubs and the DL doctorate and more than double your income a few years later. There are ways to get there from here.
     
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Very good option, there is nothing wrong with part-time study if you have the time. The issue is timing, you are betting that the shortage will last another 5 years that is the minimum time that will take to earn your doctorate. It looks like it will be the case but nobody can guarantee this, I started my DBA in IS in times when every graduate had at least 3 offers of employment. Doctorates in IS were commanding more 100K as starting salaries. Nowadays, it is not that easy to find IS or Computer Science TT appointments and some people are starting with less than 60K as starting salaries in these fields.

    I would go for it and try to land a TT before graduation. Some schools will take ABDs if qualified PhDs are not available. This can save you some time before the market can be flooded.
     
  17. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Just to clarify, I don't live in DC so GWU isn't an option for me. I was just asking people's thoughts on the subject. Another AACSB accredited school that will allow you to pursue your PhD part-time is Cleveland State (for anyone living in Ohio).
     
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I don't trust you, actually, as you're some anonymous person who showed up here a few days ago. My friend, meanwhile, I've known twelve years and know there's nothing wrong with him. Things out there just aren't as shiny as some people think.

    -=Steve=-
     
  19. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It also depends a lot on the place, immigration status, etc. In Canada, I know a person with a PhD in Math with concentration in finance that is also not having an easy time. In the US, I know few people that came back to Canada after finishing PhDs as they were not having an easy time because their lack of permanent resident status.

    As unemployment is high now in the US, some Universities are not willing to sponsor immigration visas so foreign PhDs might need to go back home.
    There are many variables to consider and not just AACSB, DL, etc. The world is a lot more complex than this.
     
  20. BizProf

    BizProf New Member

    So long as that doctorate says "Accounting" and is from a legit AACSB school in U.S. or Canada or a Euro, South African, Aussie equiv, I don't care, you're golden.
     

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