Another question on DL Doctorate and PHD programs

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by pietto, Feb 8, 2011.

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  1. JeepNerd

    JeepNerd New Member

    Something I have mentioned before and is even touched on in this thread is those elites are also RETIRING in droves (ie they are the boomers mentioned) As Gen X comes along and is able to get into those seats of power, I suspect we will see a change in this attitude. A DL Masters degree is almost a GIVEN in todays enviornment and many of these B&M schools are the ones getting INTO the online game!! (See UNC Online website as an example for a state supported list of online degrees!!)

    The University of North Carolina Online offers comprehensive descriptions of and contact, application, admission, and tuition and fee information for more than 240 online programs in 22 fields of study offered by the 16 constituent universities of one of the world’s most prestigious university systems.
    http://online.northcarolina.edu/

    In 20 years from now, I would suspect the....the B&M (AACSB, etc) schools will be the ones TEACHING the online doctorates and therefore accepting them as well.

    "Tenure" is a concept that is going away imho....and Tier 1 schools like Duke, Harvard, etc, will continue to hire from "within" their own ranks, but all the other B&Ms schools will HAVE to hire DL doctorates.

    Basic Supply and Demand. 75 million Boomers, 45 million Gen X.... so for every THREE jobs they currently hold there is TWO Gen X to step up. Gen Y being considered "too young" like Gen X has been for last few years / Senior mgmt / Deans / "Tenured" Professors, etc.
     
  2. thyslip

    thyslip New Member

    So is it better to have an MS from a B&M school and not get the DL phd? Then try to be a lecturer or teach only undergrad/commnity college.
     
  3. truckie270

    truckie270 New Member

    You said it much more diplomatically than I am able to. I was going to state "NO - because most elitist academics look down on the military", at least most of them I have met do.

    I think that this discussion, which is held frequently around here, is often missing a key variable - the subject being taught. As mentioned above with the nursining example, there are some fields where there is a such a shortage of qualified instructors that graduate higher ed. preparation is a desired qualification, not a required one. In other fields like business, etc. - there are candidates out there with PhDs from Tier 1 schools who do not get called back to second interviews.

    Speciality and emerging fields are more accepting of those with DL degrees and offer the best bet for faculty jobs for DL degree holders.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2011
  4. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Unfortunately, with so many doctors out there, it is becoming more and more difficult for a master's holder to get a college or university teaching job. That's not to say that it is impossible; in a community college setting, if a master's holder had considerable experience in the subject he/she would be teaching, it would not be inconceivable that he/she could win out over a doctorate holder who has no experience.
     
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    i hold a doctorate from an Australian school and have used to teach online as an adjunct in the US, full time online faculty in the US, community college instructor in Canada and now as full time University professor in Canada.

    I applied to few full time positions in the US and I've been asked to provide for a WES report and have gotten few interviews and never been asked about the DL nature of the degree.

    For the position that I hold, the hiring committee was skeptical of my degree, not so much because the quality of the school but because they thought the degree was not real as I explained that it was earned while working in Canada. Before the offer was made, they asked me to send my degree so they can check it and validate it.

    I believe the foreign PhD can work in some occasions but if it comes from a credible country (e.g. Australia, France, UK).
     
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I think we are over killing the DL doctorate. In my opinion, people that get DL doctorates do not get positions easily even if earned from a credible institutions for few reasons:
    -Lack of teaching experience in a face to face environment. Most people that study a DL doctorate work full time so they don't have teaching experience in a University setting.
    -Publications record. Most DL graduates have very little publications if not none as they don't have the time to publish and DL doctorates do not require publications.
    -Poor networking in Academic circles: Most jobs are gotten because references and networking, if the DL student doesn't know anyone in the circle, it becomes even harder to get an academic job.

    Do not forget that students that do full time doctorates at B&M schools spend about 5 years developing contacts, earning teaching and publication experience that part time doctoral students do not earn.

    The problems that are experienced by DL students are also experienced by part time doctoral students. For this reason, many schools do not offer part time doctoral programs as they know that part time students would have difficulty getting academic work after graduation.
     
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    To be meaningful, this analysis needs to compare not only the population numbers of different generations, but also the number of doctorate holders in each generation. I gather that's significantly higher for those under forty than in previous generations.

    -=Steve=-
     
  8. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    People keep bringing up DL doctorate holders experiencing trouble finding tenure track work due to a lack of teaching experience. I don't think this is one of the major issues, especially when you consider state schools, which are almost always research universities. I hate to tell you, but those schools aren't in it to mold young minds, they want their professors to churn out research that earns grant money and recognition for the institiution. There are schools that are "teaching schools", typically LACs that aren't in the business of churning out research, but their professors seem to be more elitist/traiditionalist then their research institution peers.

    For a professor at a research instituiton, teaching classes would be akin to a sales person filling out an expense report, it has to be done, but it's not of critical importance to the job. Especially lower level general ed courses, fights break out in departments over who will teach those courses because the professors hate it. They, and the school, want them to be doing research.

    I think there are three major issues:
    1. DL doctorate programs are frowned upon by academic traditionalist and I hate to break it to you, but they pass those exact same thoughts down to the PhD students that research under them, who then get tenure track jobs, who then descriminate against people with a DL doctorate. It's a cycle that will take many years to overcome.

    2. A lack of publishing work and presenting at conferences. It seems that not a lot of DL doctoral candidates do this (I have no statistics or proof, just my observations through what I've read). It would go along way to improve their employment prospects at a B&M school if they did.

    3. Some people have unrealistic expectations. It seems a lot of people, not everyone but quite a few, think they can do a PhD/DBA via a for-profit online school and then UCLA is going to offer them a tenure track position in their business school. I'm not saying you can't get a job at a B&M state school with an online doctorate, but manage expectations. If you can over come all the biases you might get a job at a tier 4 school.

    I think most people, especially in this community, understand the perceived biases and if a tenure track position is your ultimate goal I think you should use some forethought when pursuing a doctorate. 1. make a point to get your work published and to present at conferences. 2. Choose a school with a solid reputation that has been around for a while. Going to a strictly online school that has been in existence for 20 years is not going to do you any favors when looking for professorships. Spend the extra money now to go to a school that is better regarded in those circles. 3. Manage your expectations and understand that finding a tenure track position with a DL doctorate, especially in the current climate, is going to be really really tough.

    Sorry for rambling.
     
  9. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Plus you have the factor of the style of instruction. Military instruction tends to be highly technical, so it wouldn't necessarily correlate to some kind of liberal arts instruction. It might be more equivalent to community college instruction in technical fields. I don't see academics putting much stock in this kind of instruction, either.

    Of course, in academia, you have a strong current of "Question authority!" and "Open your mind!" thinking that wouldn't necessarily be expected in a military context.
     
  10. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Of course, most of the doctorates available via DL are in saturated fields, so the cautioning is applicable in most of the discussions on here.
     
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I don't have any numbers/citations to back this up but I think that you've overlooked a key factor. While the leading edge of baby-boomers are in fact reaching retirement age, there are a large number of these people who will not be able to easily retire due to the recent losses in the market and how these have effected pension/retirement plans. Plus, the advances in medicine have resulted in people being healthy/vigorous well beyond their 65th birthday. Clearly there will be people retiring but it may not be "in droves."
     
  12. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    My thoughts exactly.
     
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    I was reading a while a go a related article that perhaps can help to understand better the situation of academic jobs.

    Adjunct Profs, Academic Poverty & the Quixotic Quest for a Tenure-Track position | Idiotprogrammer


    Few quotes that I found interesting

    "For-profit schools deprofessionalize teaching and call PhDs who could not secure the ever decreasing tenure positions, facilitators. Your courses are written by "discipline experts (not necessarily another PhD)" and you teach them. You don’t pick the text, the method and the pay is adjunct level. "

    "just don’t go unless you are headed to an ivy league grad program and accept that you have a 25% chance of landing a tenure track job."


    I think that pretty much summarizes all. There is only 25% chances to land a tenure track for all the doctorates. Your chances obviously decrease dramatically with an online doctorate so you are looking at a very slim chance to secure a tenure track with a dotcom doctorate.

    As the article states, most doctorates will head to the for profit sector that dominates the adjunct world with prepackage courses that just need a facilitator with a PhD to look good in a catalog. This new type of dotcom academic does not need to be published or so strong academically speaking but very well versed in the use of online platforms and tools and this makes the dotcom doctor a good fit for this type of position.
     
  14. Cyber

    Cyber New Member

    First, I think most folks that pursue DL doctorates are not looking to become tenure professors at B & M school. Thinking that would be like buying a dodge or ford, and then expecting it to perform like an audi or BMW. It's just not the same and never will it be the same. However, we all agree that based on individual circumstances, some folks with online doctorates can indeed end up teaching at lower-tier B & M schools.

    Second, with the proliferation of doctoral graduates from internet schools, I foresee publishing becoming a prerequisite for securing online teaching jobs in the near future (just like PhDs have replaced master degrees, which used to be the degree required of adjuncts).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2011
  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    ...until they need a plumber.

    -=Steve=-
     
  16. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    Well said. As I've posted here before, all you need to do is look at the European tenure market (especially in Germany) where higher educational levels have been in place for years due to the generally state-funded education system. In these markets you need to not only be published, but in many cases have a long record of getting funding for research before you even sniff tenure.

    Why should the US be any different?
     
  17. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    I have a regionally accredited 100% DL DBA. However, I'd be a lunatic to seek a tenured position at a B&M university because I'd have to take a significant pay cut. Since obtaining a DBA, my financial horizons and opportunities have blossomed beyond my wildest expectations and financial opportunities continually present themselves to be grazed on. Okay, sorry for the metaphors. LOL. I never pursued a DL DBA with the intent of pursuing a [low paying] B&M tenured professorship. Why in the hell you guys keep putting B&M tenured professorships on a pedestal is simply beyond my intellectual grasp. You can keep the prestige of a B&M tenured professorship and I'll continue to pocket the cash. Your mileage may vary (another metaphor!).

    :dunce:
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I really don't know how much you are making but it is common for business professors to make 200K plus in Canada at AACSB accredited school and I believe it is the same at some US schools. This is not bad for a 9 month a year job with job security. You can add to this at least another 100K if you take consulting work.

    I believe salaries for business professors at AACSB accredited schools are very competitive. Even for adjunct work, it is common for AACSB accredited schools to pay 10K per course for some of the MBA programs compared to the 2K paid at some of the for profits.

    I realize that many people did not get online DBAs for money but we also need to accept the fact that AACSB accredited doctorates have good ROI.
     
  19. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    About $350 to $400 an hour, if it's calculated hourly, but I don't work by the hour per se.
     
  20. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Then you are definitely the rare bird. Few people would have to take a pay cut to earn $200,000.
     

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