Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by John Bear, May 17, 2005.
I'm still waiting for someone to bring balance to the force.
You may hear “tsk tsk tsk.” What I hear is a whole lot of hoopen and hollerin.
The wind blows. Tumbleweeds drift across our view. In front of us lies a small termite infested town. Many of the upper windows of the makeshift buildings have been boarded shut.
As we enter the town we are struck by the commotion. We hear the bursts of rifle and pistols being shot into the air. We feel something isn’t quite right. As we enter the crowded salon we are struck by the atmosphere of tension and anger.
We hear yells of “hang ‘em!” over the general noise. More guns are fired into the air. Cowboys and miners, drunk on whiskey and the smell of lynching, stumble into the streets. “Let’s hang ‘em” they shout. “Get a rope!” Surreal faces, twisted by the excitement and smell of a lynching, push towards the jail. Inside, behind bars, waiting their fate, are the dreaded members of the UA-U Gang.
Wanted: One tough dude who will stand shoulder to shoulder with me, guns drawn, sun at our backs, in an attempt – however feeble - to stare the mob down.
And Diaghilev leans over to Picasso and whispers, "We sure don't have salons like this back in Paris, eh, my little friend?" And Picasso mutters through clenched teeth, "Get your hand off my knee. I'm not Nijinski."
Delusions of grandeur.
The lone salon in town is crowded but relatively quite.
You hear only a few laughs as the fool protests his treatment after declaring a fraudulent degree. Most seem bored and uninterested. They sip their beers and just stare. The fool declares to the crowd that accreditation is not his speciality. The few that are interested express amazement that the fraud is allowed to continue his dishonesty. Then a lone clown stands up in the back and declares, academic frauds are people too and we must worship them for their cunning deceptive ways.
Oh yea, I forgot to mention that the windows are boarded up then a tumbleweed blows across the road.
This is a feeble--but common--attempt to portray this issue as a fued between two camps. It isn't. It's a pathetic cry out against a system that obviously works and, just as obviously, works against them. So they make it sould like the big, bad "RA-only" gang is out to get them, instead of dealing with the realities that exist.
None of this is personal, but people like this try to make it so, with this example more dramatic than most.
Bill, before such elocution I can only raise the white flag – until another day.
Morgan Khanstein, Esq.
Again, stated in terms of conflict. Complainants of DegreeInfo (and we all know who they are) see these discussions in this light, and then go away mad because we didn't fight fairly. The real truth is that we didn't fight at all. But the truth probably hurts enough to make some people feel that way.
Rich Douglas: "None of this is personal, but people like this try to make it so..."
Rich, please look at the following three quotes:
"The guy essentially called himself incompetent. I hope that the media keeps the light shined on him."
[This is absurd. A physicist doesn’t necessarily know how to repair a car, build a house, or fix his/her plumbing.]
"First, he's supposed to know about that stuff, given the job he holds."
[Is that so? Was it part of his military training?]
"I don't think anyone who uses the logoid "skillset" should have ANYTHING to do, however remotely, with weapons of any kind. That includes lawnmowers and electric toothbrushes. Or the Defence Department."
This is my favorite. Even more interesting is that none of you called Uncle on it. The inference, coupled with
BillDayson's "incompetent" comment implies that his "failure" in one area extends to other, or all, areas. Suddenly, all holders of "fake diplomas" (your term not mine) are "incompetent" in all areas! This is not only illogical, but it IS a highly personal attack.
Back to the race track: The fact is that lots of "mustangs" (individuals with UA degrees and life/work experience) without all of the proper breeding and handling (RA schooling) are doing quite well on the track (professional world) - and yes - competing and winning against your pedigreed horses (RA degree holders).
Hopefully, for your sake, this is not your best shot.
CA Bar race track
Let's look at one well-known "track" where accredited and unaccredited degree holders compete together: the California Bar Exam. Here are the bar pass numbers for first-time takers in July 2004:
Graduates of ABA-accredited schools (including CA ABA, out-of-state ABA, and unallocated ABA):
Graduates of Calbar-accredited (non-ABA accredited) schools:
Graduates of unaccredited schools, or correspondence schools, or non-graduates with law office experience:
The fact is that few "mustangs" succeed on the CA Bar exam track. Yes, it can be done -- but it doesn't happen very often. The ABA-accredited "thoroughbreds" overwhelmingly dominate.
The situation is reportedly similar for the Professional Engineering exam. It is legal to take the PE exam without an ABET-accredited engineering degree in California (and some other states), but so few people become PEs by this route that NCEES no longer bothers to report the numbers.
Do you know the percentage of test takers in the various categoties that pass? How do the success rates compare?
Jack, you're back. My best shot? Hm.
I am thankful that degreeinfo exists. I learn something here everyday. I am forever indebted to Dr. Bear’s work, without which I wouldn’t have made the decision to leave traditional education and step into the world of DL. I appreciate having Rich Douglas, our resident DL scholar, on board.
It is through the play of opposites (e.g. RA v. UA) that we attempt to achieve equilibrium. All voices (as long as they are not belligerent or threatening) have a place at the table of ideas. Humor goes a long ways.
Debate is (unfortunately or not) built on the use of militant language. We defend positions; attack positions; believe our own positions are unassailable. A kindler gentler forum would be nice. All the same, giving each other a hard time is fun (as long as we still listen, discuss, and are respectful).
I didn't say all mustangs can run on the track. Accreditation is the best guarantee of quality.
Now, Back to Jack:
Come to papa!
Mr Khanstein has a double problem with metaphors: hypertrophy and incomprehension. He wilfully misread my wry comment on Mr Abell in order to attack a straw man of a charge of universal incompetence. I made no such charge. My gravamen against Mr Abell is worse: that he is unethical and dishonourable.
Re: th denominator?
Pass rates for first-time General Bar exam takers in California in July 2004 follow.
California ABA-accredited schools:
36.2 % (but see note below)
9.1 % (but see note below)
Law offices/judge's chambers:
0 candidates in July 2004
Important note: The pass rates for correspondence schools and unaccredited schools, as shown above, are somewhat misleading. Students at these schools are required to take an additional examination, the First Year Law Student's Examination (or "Baby Bar"), before they can qualify for the General Bar exam. Most of these students are "weeded out" by the Baby Bar; pass rates for first-timers in June 2004 were 33% for correspondence school students and 23% for unaccredited school students. Students at ABA- and Calbar-accredited schools are normally exempt from the Baby Bar.
If the Baby Bar results were factored in, then the overall bar passing rates for students at correspondence and unaccredited schools would obviously be much lower.
This guy is apparently the top HR official in the Pentagon. Yet he tells us that knowlege about accreditation isn't part of his "skillset".
That's a pretty damning admission right there, coming from the guy in charge of overseeing the educational requirements for the hiring decisions made by the Defense Department.
But it's much worse than that. This clown made his "skillset" remark to justify his having apparently purchased a phony "degree" himself.
Presumably any man occupying his position needs to understand what higher education is. He needs to understand why some Pentagon positions demand education, often lots of education of specific kinds.
So even if by some incomprehensible chance he really doesn't understand the relevance of accreditation to all of that, how in the world could it have escaped his attention that he wasn't receiving a credible education himself?
I agree totally. I think that he almost certainly knew exactly what he was doing. He was lying.
But even if we suppose that he simply didn't know, if we accept that his "skillset" really doesn't extend to things like higher education qualifications, he has still confessed that he's incompetent to hold the position of Assistant Secretary of Defense for HR.
Uncle, how can I be guilty of both "incomprehension" and "wilfully" misreading your comment?
In any case, I'm among your biggest fans.
Morgie - I'm not sure what the above is intended to signify, are you? To me you are simply a court jester. You add nothing of substance and are tolerated only so long as you remain amusing. In my mind you stopped being amusing quite some time ago but since I do not control the gate, you remain at someone elses discretion. Enjoy it while you are able.
stupid ass anti-American leftists...
You have to hit them when they get wacky, of course, but I do encourage their nutty behavior. The sad part is this is the voice of the modern Democrat. See, to them... any middle of the road stance has got to be a plot to support Bush. Their hatred runs so deep and is so psychological. This isn't like honest disagreement. This is right and wrong stuff. I salute their wackiness and enjoy their billions spent on the last election got them but one: osama bama whatever from Illinois. Keep it up, whack jobs. FINALLY, I have a media choice. I used to be a reporter... used to do work for NPR for gawds sake (yes, they were goofy left back then... I was trying the "I am apolitical" game unlike everybody around me).
What is it about these people that they hate American and Americans so much?
Re: stupid ass anti-American leftists...
In other words, anyone who might disagree with you is inherently evil and has something wrong with them? Excuse me, but who made you God? And when?
Separate names with a comma.