ACCS: What are their chances?

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but what do you think are the chances of ACCS to retain their accreditation? I spoke to Mitch B. and he felt that they were doing all they could. Do any of you have any other info?


I also am aware that they have some type of Visit by TRACS in early Jan.

Thanks for info.

 

Wish I had something solid to tell you but I do not. What follows is second hand information. As I understand it, the 'stay' of the rescinding of the accreditation was better than a 'show cause'. ACCS worked hard to clear up deficiencies (this included bringing in consultants). Where they are at with that I do not know. The previous administration apparently performed in an unchristian manner by not do their best for the school or for the students. This has left students, faculty and administration riding a roller coaster.

My impression is that ACCS worked hard and has mended some of the fences with TRACS. I got the impression that TRACS was a tad offended by the initial response to the reaffirmation of accrediation process. ACCS has a lot going for it and has got VA approval, DANTES approval (which as **I understand*** is not esay & that even U of P did not get).

What will become of ACCS, only time will tell. The TRACS commission report says that they are to host a January site visit.

As a side note I was looking at a Trinity Seminary catalogue and noticed a rather striking difference in the Faculty over say ACCS. Admittedly, Trinity is going for RA but their (Trinity's) faculty have solid academic credentials for example:

Biblical Studies Dept (Bill's pet area):

Chair - ThD Dallas Theological Seminary
Program Directors - PhD Westminister
PhD Puche
PhD Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Faculty - PhD Dallas Th. Sem
PhD Mid Amerca Th. Sem
ThD Concordia (the real one)
PhD University of Wales
ThD Dallas
PhD (c) hebrew Union College
etc,
etc.

This area was one of Bill's concerns with ACCS. On the surface it appears that Trinity Seminary has a more academically credentialed faculty for offering a biblical studies program. I think ACCS is trying to rectify the problem by bringing in more PhD's.

I do not know where you are at in the program but I wish the best for all of us and for the faculty and staff at ACCS. They seem well meaning but have had some administrative issues that need tweaking.

North

 

Re: Re: ACCS: What are their chances?

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I also wish the best for ACCS and for its students. North is correct that faculty qualifications has become for me a significant issue as I've grown to understand what national accreditors as AABC and TRACS set as norms. My experience in writing the UZ dissertation thus far also has instilled in me more of a respect for what the level of theological doctoral work is and what might qualify one to supervise that work. This is my complaint about most unaccredited seminaries that offer grad work in Theology: their profs are not qualified to teach or supervise grad theological work according to the standards of the evangelical accreditors which are approved by the US Dept of Ed.

One can read the many posts I've made on Trinity and find nary a disparaging of the qualifications of the TTS faculty. The only gripe I had is that the Trinity faculty does not probe student submissions in a manner to lead the student into higher learning. I wrote Martin, then Dean, a 12 page letter about this deficit in methodology exemplifying how it could be remedied , and he wrote back an invitation to visit Indiana and discuss my concern with the faculty. But then being made aware of my continual vehement complaints I made on the Trinity discussion site about the false TTS accreditational and utility claims of accreditation through Liverpool, before I was banned, Martin withdrew that invitation. Of course neither in my experience does the ACCS faculty do much more than put a grade on a paper. The qualification , PhD/ThD of a prof is important, but it becomes noneffectual if that prof either does not grasp how to teach or does not care to make the effort to teach. The doc qualifies one academically but not necessarily functionally to teach. Teaching is not just putting grades on papers.

This use of probing questions would seem important when student submissions are the primary vehicle of interaction between DL profs and students. The submissions should become a mode and opportunity for further instruction by the use of professorial probing questions to which students respond. Of course, it requires more energy and time to properly evaluate and comment on a student paper than it does simply to put down a grade. This would, I suppose, raise the cost of DL education.

I spoke with the head of TRACS about the ACCS faculty. I called him because I wanted clarification on the precise nature of the deficits in that area to which the TRACS site alludes in its evaluation of ACCS. He confirmed that it had to do with the degrees of the ACCS staff. He stated that in the view of TRACS a DMin does not qualify one to teach grad Bible/Theology. But as far as I know, there was as late as a year ago no accredited ThD/PhD there. Even the AABC , I understand, requires the USA type four year accredited masters, ThM, in Bible/Theology to teach undergrad Bible/Theology. Generally, however, DMins are not in Bible/Theology but are rather in Ministry (Pastoral Theology). Consequently the DMin oft would not qualify one in the eyes of the AABC, if I interpret correctly, to teach even freshman Bible.

North, what evidence is there that ACCS is bringing in some PhDs/ThDs?

 

You are appreciated

Merry Christmas

Fellas

I wanted to let you guys know that i appreciate your input.
I have sort of slowed down my pace since i have began a new ministry.

I am considering my options and finishing the class that i now have.

Please keep posting

Robert

 

There is another point I should make as an afterthought. This occured to me as I was ready to walk out the door to make Lasar Quick copies of the writings of Leonides of Byz. , Nestorius , Harnack, and others for chap 6 of the UZ work before returning these sources to the library. Time is so precious particularly with my self-imposed deadline.

It is also the grad curricula of ACCS at which TRACS is looking critically. The deficiency is that ACCS ,as far as I know, uses the same theological/Biblical coursework at all grad levels. Therefore, were this true, one beginning an MA in Bible would do the same as did I doing a Dmin in Bible. But the latter degree should require different, more advanced, sorts of expectations, materials, and strategies than the former.

This fault was in my experience shared by Trinity. This school had one listen to the same cassette tapes regardless of whether one was in a Phd or a BA! It is true that more was expected in papers of the PhD. But why share any material or assignments between these two extreme levels?

Probably the 'why' in both TTS and ACCS has more to do with the saving of time by the lesson planners than it does for the acquisition of knowledge by the lesson doers!

I see the same unfortunate mixing of materials in the Andersonville programs where one uses ITS lectures. These lectures are of a good quality ; they even are used by accredited schools as Western. But these lectures are not at doctoral level. They are at the masters (MA/MDiv) level. Inded I used one in the Greek exegesis of the Pastoral Epistles while in the Western MDiv.

If what I say is correct, ACCS faces a big challenge to revamp a portion of the curricula. Probably an influx of PhDs/ThDs would aid in doing the necessary modifications. ACCS faces, I fear, huge obstacles.

Well, back to Nestorius , Leonides, Harnack, and the Hypostatic Union.

 

Probably the wrong Harnack.

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I think Bill is correct about ACCS. As much of a foe of Prussianism as I am, too much of an aw shucks demeanor often conveys the impression of simply not giving a d---.

There is a pervasive disorganization in all aspects of ACCS: feedback, prof accessibility, left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, phone calls never returned, gross inconsistencies in answers to questions of fact, lack of integration of textbooks with classroom instruction (random or hearsay textbook choice?), failure to use on-campus instruction coherently with DL, and all of this papered over with a really grating bonhomie.

Maybe it would all be worse had the palace coup that ousted Shealy not taken place, but the genuine devotion of these folks needs some genuine institutional order and discipline. I'm glad they're not surly b-----ds, don't get me wrong, but they all oughta be locked in a motel room for a month with copies of Clausewitz.

 

Bill,

Was written permission obtained from the publisher to make copies of the stated writings? I know you would never be a participant in millish activities.

 

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Russell, My Confidant and My Conscience, You Grievously Err:


You as a Wesleyan, and therefore, no doubt, one experienced in the eradication of the sin nature in accord with the teaching of that heresy , such experience is a requiste for ordination, not so??, should know that according to Wesleyan divines, sin is only , "...a willing transgression of a known law"

Therefore, regarding ,firstly, the second qualification of that definition of sin, ie, a condition of knowing, I consequently am blameless as I am ignorant of any wrong doing , and thus, also claim as well sinlessness in this regard, particularly as the Christian College library from which these volumes are taken has convenient copy machines in the halls for just such a work as this which now you wrongly find me guilty of doing .

Secondly, in regard to the first qualification of that definition of a sin, , I was unwilling to do this copying, but was forced into it having no other access to any portion of The Bazaar of Heraclides by the aged , abandoned, and unjustly accused Nestorius. As I was unwilling, it also on that account is not sin. Therefore you err twice over.

Besides, millish activity , unfortunately, is not an exact copy of the real thing any more than Arminianism is an exact of the real (heh, heh..just teasing) . Were it so, in either case, I'd shut up about it

 

Haven't I heard this story before? Genesis 3:13?

 

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Yes. It was done unwillingly.

But as sin must be voluntary according to your own Mr. Wesley, you, therefore, must convict him of faulty teaching if you convince me of foul play

But to rescue you from heresy, Dear Russell, I am willing to stand condemned

 

Re: Re: Re: ACCS: What are their chances?

None other than Dr. Beville mentioning that they were lining up a PhD to bring on board. No idea how many. There seems to be at least one new one in Biblical Counseling.

I wish the best for them.

Janko said:

"There is a pervasive disorganization in all aspects of ACCS: feedback, prof accessibility, left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, phone calls never returned, gross inconsistencies in answers to questions of fact".

Amen brother Janko. This characterized my experience with them and another person who graduated with his DMin. It can be very frustrating. Many of their problems stem from being administratively challenged. Nice folks but as you say 'kind of an aw shucks attitude". I think someone a couple of years ago I spoke to (during candidacy) called them a mom and pop operation that grew. I suspect that is what happened. It grew well beyond their ability to easily manage it. On top of that I have talked with some sweet older folks who are wonderfully grandmotherly but I think lacking in the oomph and know how to help effectively administratively assist the administrators. Dr. Beville needs to develop a top notch, competent, team of administrative assistants who understand regulatory requirements and can meet them. I can't tell you the number of administrative fumbles that I dealt with. You combine that with what was apparently Shealy's inattention to good administrative stewardship and there is a problem.

One thing though. I do not recall (could be wrong) that ACCS's situation with offering a DMin in Biblical studies was any different in terms of faculty when ACCS received initial accreditation and when they had their reaccreditation visit. So I am a little curious as too why it was not a prblem for TRACS and then suddenly became one.

North

 

Thank you, Bill. No greater love hath any man than this.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: ACCS: What are their chances?

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I'm not sure that this "suddenly" became a problem . This is my hypothesis:

The current TRACS Accreditation Standards ,which anyone can read online, were revised in 2001. I wonder if this revision was in conjunction with TRACS getting CHEA approval? ACCS was approved before that revision. I wonder if the Standards before the revision required PhDs/ThDs?

But nevertheless, of a surety the reaccreditation visit (if you mean the recent one) did in fact ding ACCS on the lack of appropriately degreed grad faculty.

The current TRACS Standards in 15.1 say that one who teaches grad level Bible/Theolo must have an earned terminal degree in those disciplines he/she teaches. That was the occasion of my call to Fitzgerald the Exec Director of TRACS who emphatically clarified that what this standard requires is the ThD/PhD NOT the DMin. A Dmin in his eyes does not qualify one to teach grad Bib/Theol.

So, as I suppose those ACCS administrators have known of the reg in 15.1 since 2001, and as I suppose they could contact Fitzgerald as easily as did I were that reg unclear to them, that it , therefore, is not right to suppose that the ACCS deficit in this regard was suddenly a problem of TRACS or suddenly was sprung on ACCS. In fact, ACCS had at least a two year notice .

To remedy the deficit of prof qualifications at ACCS may well require more than getting one or two PhD/ThDs on board. These new folks would have teach ALL the Bib/Theo courses offered in the MA, MDiv, and DMin programs as I understand. Then too, more than putting grades on papers is required. TRACS standards stipulate specifically that a significant level of mentoring and adequate regular contact with students should occur in grad work. In my experience this definitely did not occur. I really do not see how the addition of only one or two PhDs/ThDs in Bib/Theol will suffice for the volume of needs the many ACCS students have.

 

Bill,

Your point is well taken about the revison that occurred in relation to CHEA. You seem to be aware that these were indeed shared with all TRACS member organizations and you may well be right.

I have a lot of experience in a regulatory agency interpreting laws/regulations and applying them to institutions. ACCS from an outsiders point of view seems to have failed to do what I saw many institutions fail to do and that is have an internal standards specialist. In these situations you need someone whose job it is to be completely familiar with the regulations and then have internal quality control systems which measure against these regulations, are reviewed and corrected when the system is off course. In this way by the time the external agency comes in you are on top of everything. Making Mitch Beville, the Director of Admissions/Director of Veteran's Affairs/In Charge of Putting out Fires, etc. is not a receipe for success (too many hats). On top of that I got the impression that he was having some diffculty with other folks following the administrative process.

So, in relation to your point above, I have also seen this situation in terms of regulation. It never ceased to amaze me how folks would get notice of changed laws and regulations and would do nothing about it until they were cited for the violations and in some cases put on corrective action. Then they often complained about pettiness of the law...etc.

I have to say this for ACCS. They appear to be working hard to overcome their problems and have taken full repsonsibility for their situation. Dr. Beville has been honest and upfront (other than initially not telling me they were having a problem). He does not minimize the issue and simply says they are trying their best. As I understand they have been working with outside consultants, lawyers, etc. So..who knows.

North

 

Well, regardless of that my belief that they did not do a good job of internal quality control in terms of ensuring their adherence to regulations...stands. I have seen this time and time again in institutions and it never ceased to amaze me that something so simple was left undone. Many folks invariable did what ever they did in their insitutions & waited to be cited to correct deficencies.
It does not work. Good institutions have people who monitor regulations and laws & check their internal systems to ensure compliance so that when we inspect they have minor deficiencies.

When I first contacted Dr. B. I was amazed at how many things he was responsible for.

North

 

Well, regardless of that my belief that they did not do a good job of internal quality control in terms of ensuring their adherence to regulations...stands. I have seen this time and time again in institutions and it never ceased to amaze me that something so simple was left undone. Many folks invariable did what ever they did in their insitutions & waited to be cited to correct deficencies.
It does not work. Good institutions have people who monitor regulations and laws & check their internal systems to ensure compliance so that when we inspect they have minor deficiencies.

When I first contacted Dr. B. I was amazed at how many things he was responsible for.

North

 

ACCS is the most disorganized institution that I've ever been involved with as a student. Unreturned phone calls, syllabi unsent, records misplaced, etc....are the norm. Once you get past all of the administrative bungling the faculty themselves seem quite adept and do a good job.

 

I agree BLD. My experience as well. None of it is malacious just bungling. The faculty I have dealt with both have PhD's and seemed highly competent. They appear to demand almost dissertation like quality for the ARP (not an easy ride). It is the administrative stuff up front that used to drive me crazy.

I agree with Bill as well that there are stewardship issues here. I think Dr. B. realizes this and has made comments indicating that he is ware the school dropped the ball. I am upset about the situation but have come to acceptance. Shealy and whoever else initially bungled this should be ashamed to have left this legacy.

I hope these accreditation problems are solved because even for ex students it is never good to have your alma mater have its accreditation yanked. They seem to be working hard and hopefuly they can pull it off.

Dr. B needs competent help that can do what he does in his abscence.

At any rate, BLD's experience is so familiar.

North