Acceptability of Unaccredited Degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Rich Douglas, Jun 14, 2005.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    There has been some discussion on another thread on this board about the acceptability of doctoral degrees from DETC-accredited schools. And on another board, the operator has said the following:

    Also, by the way, the Douglas paper shows a good level of acceptance of legal, state approved degrees. But he doesn't bother to say that at the forums.

    There, I've said it. But, actually, I've said that many times, and lots more. What Mr. Crabb fails to mention is that I also explained why this is true. And it is largely true because employers don't understand accreditation, they can't tell the difference between state approval and accreditation, and they cannot tell the difference between accredited and unaccredited schools.

    I invite Mr. Crabb to show us the employers who explicitly state (like in employement policies or job descriptions) they accept degrees from unaccredited schools. A plethora of such examples would certainly indicate employers have considered this issue and have concluded such degrees are, indeed acceptable. Otherwise, we can look at the same survey he cites (mine), which shows a statistically significant drop in acceptability of such degrees once it's pointed out that state approval isn't the same thing as accreditation.

    James: If you're going to rely upon my dissertation's results, you have to accept all of them, not just half of one conclusion because in that fashion it appears to meet your needs. And isn't this the same dissertation that you, despite not actually being a Ph.D. yourself, have criticized repeatedly? Which is it?
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Remarkably, James Crabb continues to use his bully pulpit (in which he does not allow me to participate) to snark at me, this time regarding things I actually didn't say at yet another forum (DegreeBoard).

    This intellectual lightweight has the temerity to lie about what I have said on a board we both post on, but doesn't have the guts to challenge me either there or here, nor is he willing to allow me to answer him at his place.

    Not only doesn't he know what he's talking about, not only does he lie about what I've said and not said, not only does he lie about me personally, and not only does he use his board to actively promote diploma mills, he hides in his little blogger space and barks like a scared chihuahua in his yard, hoping no one actually opens the gate and challenges him.


    (Sorry about using this board to answer him, but what he does can influence others. Plus, I get mad at chicken-bleeps like him.)
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2005
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Rich, you should know by now that Mr. Crabb would never let pesky distractions like facts get in the way of his agenda. :rolleyes:
  4. bing

    bing New Member

    I had mentioned this previously, but my company hired in a guy with a Hamilton degree. Now, that's about as bogus as it gets. He worked in my field and was quite good at it. Retired Army, too.

    Personally, I think he could have done himself better. He was bright, he seemed energetic enough to me to do anything he set his mind to. I think my company just missed it or didn't know(he moved onto another company since).

    My company does have a policy for tuition assistance stating that the schools MUST be regionally accredited. Not even DETC fits the bill yet. I've been talking to the HR Director lately and he wants to have lunch to talk about distance education a bit more. He's interested in getting a ministry degree but doesn't want to quit to do it.

    I'll have to check out some of the other education boards. Mainly my experience with them has been AED, of old, and here. Haven't been to degreeboard yet. Checked out another one but the messages were few and far between. This board seems as active as it can get and there are a lot of good opinions, advice, and engaging conversations to be had here.
  5. russ

    russ New Member

    Anyone who "snarks" at you, Rich, gets my vote since you love to do the same to me. Hey, if you can't take it... you know the rest.

    I am not familiar with this person or his site but I think I will track him down. I doubt he is nearly as bad as you say he is.
  6. Rivers

    Rivers New Member

    How I often forget that Russ is the Purveyor of truth around here.:D

    *please note: I mean that in the most sarcastic way possible*
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2005
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Oh, I can take it. That should be obvious because of this thread.

    Crabb, like you, hides behind a fake name. (Several, actually.) But he was found out.

    And you're the easiest to "take" of all, because you take care of yourself, if you know what I mean.:rolleyes:
  8. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    As Rivers has suggested, russ is not the sort of person that you should take advice from. He has his own covert agenda and he will say anything if he thinks it will advance his cause. He cares for no one but himself. Please take this into consideration as you read his future postings.
  9. russ

    russ New Member

    Yes, boys and girls, keep your eyes shut and your ears plugged because I might say something to mislead you. After all, you don't want to be taken over by the dark side.

    I have no "covert agenda" anymore than anyone else on this site. You presume that I have given this much more thought than I have. My posting have simply said that there may be a better alternative to the kind of mess we have that validates someone's higher education. Calling me names will not remove the doubt that many people have in the accreditation process in this country.
  10. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member


    If you find a decent one, please let us know. Outside of a few "closed" fora (for professional associations), Degreeinfo is the only virtual community that I have yet encountered that is actively involved in providing useable information in the areas of degree mills, accreditation, program recommendation and up-to-the-minute news on all things DL.

    I have previewed several other sites and have always been disappointed. All that I have found are sites with the bulk of posts dedicated to personal attacks of John Bear, Rich Douglas and selected other regulars on Degreeinfo. If you eliminate the threads dealing with criticisms of Degreeinfo and some of its members, there is precious little content left, other than the promotion of a few unaccredited schools.

    Although I have participated in the discussion of a number of topics, I come to Degreeinfo seeking new DL information. My profession is instructional technology and distance learning and Degreeinfo has been a very good source of useful information. In contrast, I have not found anything at all in the other fora that I have been able to utilize in my work.

    Happy hunting!

  11. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    This is a perfect example of how little russ understands about what I'm talking about. You see, I don't want people to shut their eyes and cover their ears. I want ever single reader of this forum to pay close attention to every single word you write. I want it to become the cornerstone of the forum. I want this because I firmly believe that if this happens then you will become totally and irrevocably discredited. This is simply because you are completely full of shit and this will become a plain fact for eveyone who bothers to follow your posts. You make outrageous statements without any factual basis. You consistently refuse to answer questions about these statements or any other aspect of your postings. Everyone already knows this.
    So, back to the last posting. The only piece of this statement with which I would disagree is russ' use of the word "might." In my own opinion he will definitely try to convince people that all unaccredited degrees are equal to RA degrees. Now I don't know if he is a mill owner or simply someone who is desperately trying to defend their own unaccredited degree but the fact that he posts anonymously and refuses to supply even hints about their "credentials" and consistently refuses to answer questions about his? posts suggests a covert agenda.
    While this is just my opinion I do not think I'm alone. Simply running through the history of russ' posting is the most damaging evidence imaginable. Anyone who doubts what I'm saying should run the history of russ' postings. Make up your own mind. If I'm wrong then tell me so. If you think that russ is a sterling character who should be given free reign then say so. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I can be convinced.
  12. russ

    russ New Member

    You are wrong. I am not a degree mill owner, I do not support degree mills and I do not hold an unaccredited degree of any kind. My position is very clear and has been consistently stated over and over again on this board. I disagree with those who declare all unaccredited degrees as worthless and those who go further to declare that even nationally accredited degrees are below par.

    Yes, legal unaccredited degrees should be on par with RA degrees since, in my mind, a degree is a degree is a degree. You can debate the quality of the degree or the education but if it is legal, it's legal. End of story.

    My understanding is that degree mills (degrees with no work requirement) are not legal and therefore do not qualify to be on par with RAs or legal unaccredited degrees. In fact, they should not be acceptable at all and I don't accept them. There are some who would argue that the life experience of an exceptionally accomplished individual should qualify them for a degree with no work. I can understand that argument but do not agree with it.

    It is very kind of you to state that you feel my comments should be the cornerstone of this site. Since a cornerstone forms the most important part of the foundation of any building, I am honored that my comments would hold such a prestigious position on this board. I doubt that is what you meant but it is what you said. Feel free to read any of my posts and judge for yourself what kind of person I am. I guarantee you one thing - not one of my posts calls someone a name or says they are "full of shit."
  13. bing

    bing New Member

    Been out sick today from work and decided to look around at other boards.

    I took a look at a board on aimoo(aimo?) today. Pretty much nothing of interest there and they quoted a lot of what was said on this board and thrashed it there. Lame.

    Went over to Degreeboard and they did not have anything of interest, really.

    I came into this board right about the time it started. I recall some clown with about a "million" doctorates behind his name was totally killing AED. That's about the time this board started and I moved on over here because the best posters from AED came. Likely, if it is available the board members here know it.

    I'm an architecture manager in my company. Supposed to be just tech and consulting but in these days of cuts we are "nicely persuaded" to take over managerial roles. My interest in a doctorate is in instructional technology. However, been looking at other things, too. A nearby university offers engineering doctorates...albeit not distance really(but i live so close that it would seem doable). Still thinking on that one.

    If I find other forums of interest I will post them. For me, I found my MBA program on this forum years back. So, that was a huge bonus for me. :)


  14. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Welcome (back, or whatever), Bing! Glad to have you posting.
  15. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    You deliberately and consistently misrepresent the facts to suit your own purpose. You refuse to answer questions about erroneous and provocative statements you've made and you consistently misrepresent the attitudes of the members of this forum. With all that as your history on this forum, why should anyone believe you when you say you're not a degree mill owner/graduate? You've lied about everything else, why not those items as well? Others may find you amusing but I do not. I am somewhat molified by the response of others who clearly do not take you or anything you say seriously. Your postings should form the cornerstone of this forum as the reaction of others, the truth that arises in response to your foolish postings is most instructive to the newbies. Every time you post you weaken your own position.
  16. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member


    I have been active in the field of instructional technology for 18 years and am acquainted with the faculty teaching in most of the major U.S. doctoral programs in instructional technology. If I can be of any assitance to you, please let me know.

  17. Arminius

    Arminius member

    I agree 100%, and I do not have an unaccredited degree either.

    One of the elect... :D
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    This is the sloppiest argument on this board, ever. A degree from an unknown school means something precisely because it is accredited. Accreditation is simply the agreed upon way to compare degrees, against some standard and other degrees. A degree is a measure of accomplishments - if you can not compare a measure with something known, it is NOT a useful measure, simply by definition.
  19. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I agree with Russ's first sentence; however, I do not recall anyone making such a statement on the forum. There have been many who have benefitted from unaccredited degrees, as has been pointed out previously by many of the regulars on Degreeinfo (inlcuding myself). Regarding NA degrees as "below par", I'm not sure what you mean by that. Accreditation sets up a minimum standard (i.e. "par")that its members must meet. NA accredited schools have met or exceeded par. If fact, a certain type of national accreditation, such as APA accreditation of programs in psychology, is critical.

    Now, I suppose that Russ is remarking that NA is regarded as below RA "par". What members of Degreeinfo have said about that is that acceptance of NA degrees for admission into graduate schools is far less than for RA degrees. This is a fact established by every research study and survey that has been done on the topic. There is no ambiguity here, nor is it anyone's opinion. Russ and Arminius may not like the current situation and disagree with the vast majority of colleges and universities in the U.S., but that IS the situation.

    I disagree with Russ's second paragraph. Just because something is legal, does not mean that it "should be on par" with something that is superior. In Russ' (and, presumably Arminius') mind "a degree is a degree is a degree". Since they are both issued by colleges on parchement, that may be true, but the similarities end when one attempts to use the degree. A car is a car is a car, but enter a Kia Rio next and a Dodge Viper in the INDY 500 and you'll find out that all cars are not equal (even though they are "legally" both cars). End of story.

    there is anotth thing that we have in common: Like you, none of my four degrees are from unaccredited schools.

    Tony Piña, Ed.D.
    Administrator, Northeastern Illinois University
  20. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    If it's legal, it's legal, unless it's not

    Is it really that simple?

    Consider, for example, an unaccredited engineering degree from Kennedy-Western, which operates legally in the State of Wyoming. Under current state laws, all of the following things appear to be true about it:

    1. It is legal for general use in the State of Wyoming, but not for fulfillment of Professional Engineer's license requirements.
    2. It is not legal for general use in the State of North Dakota.
    3. It is legal for general use in the State of Oregon, but only if it is explictly flagged as "unaccredited" and "unapproved".
    4. It is legal for general use in the State of Michigan, but not for civil service employment.
    5. It is legal for general use in the State of Indiana, but not if it is a doctoral degree.

    In some cases, the legal status is murky. For example, I don't know of any California law that bars the use of unaccredited degrees, yet Kennedy-Western explictly bars California residents from enrolling, so there must be some legal issue involved.

    I am not an attorney, and I don't claim that this is a comprehensive list; it is just based on some state laws that I happen to be aware of. But given the existence of such laws, I have to question the statement that "if it's legal, it's legal". Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that "if it's legal, it's legal, unless it's not".
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2005
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