Acceptability of Unaccredited Degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Rich Douglas, Jun 14, 2005.

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  1. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I could not agree more. My wife has learned more from the Weather Channel than the three credit class she took in Meteorology + one credit lab. :confused:

    She had a horrible teacher who changed text books but was too lazy to change the questions on the homework, quizes, and exams. She got a "0" on one exam. She would get a 50-question take home test and it would take her hours to complete the 50 questions and get about 1/3 of them right. She averaged about a 30 on all tests and quizes

    She ended up getting a "A" in the class since it was graded on a curve.
  2. russ

    russ New Member

  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    false, frequently false, sometimes false,
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Accreditation may not be the only true standard. But without accreditation, champions of unaccredited schools will have to do something to make a persuasive case.

    The issue here isn't legality is it? It's what, if any, respect that unaccredited degrees should receive.

    I get the impression that you want to argue that legality equals legitimacy. In other words, that all legally awarded degrees are worthy of respect, regardless of any academic considerations. You claim that you oppose mills, but by that you seem to mean schools that aren't operating legally.

    Do you think that there are any schools out there that are legally awarding degrees, but that nevertheless are mills unworthy of respect? Or would you argue that a legal mill is impossible simply by definition?

    Then the champions of whatever unaccredited degrees are worthy of respect have to make a case for them.

    The burden is on you to differentiate the good ones from the mills and then to convince other people that they really are good.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2005
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    If you are surprised that state approval doesn't imply accreditation equivalence (of whatever sort), you shouldn't be. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Somewhere I have an old copy of certificate of full institutional approval by CA state that clearly stated that it was comparable/equivalent to accredited colleges in USA.

    I think this certificate was from mid 90's and at that time the approval was still in state department of education and not like today under consumer protection.

    To me and the rest it's a statement by the CA state department of education that state approved degrees in CA are equivalent to accredited degrees in USA.

    I know the history and how it was perceived.
    Just making a point.

  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    If your point is that sometimes governments can make ridiculous statements and sometimes even ridiculous laws then, I would have to agree with you.
  7. russ

    russ New Member

    Bill, these are all very good questions. Thanks.

    No, I don't believe unaccredited schools have to do anything other than convince their students they are getting the kind of education they are looking for.

    No, the issue is legality. By respect I refer to acknowledgement of the legality of the graduates' degrees, not the quality of the degree.

    Yes, legality equals legitimacy. Legally awarded degrees are worthy of respect as legitimate degrees by persons who also respect the law of the land. Diploma mills issue illegal degrees and are therefore not entitled to such respect.

    I would argue the latter.

    The case is already made. They are legal.

    Actually, I would leave that to the educational consumer that has to make a choice where their dollars go. American consumers are probably the most sophisticated in the world. As long as the school that they choose is operating legally and has the legal right to issue degrees, then the degrees should be acknowledged by all authorities as legitimate college degrees. Employers and others reviewing a person's education or resume can do all the qualitative analysis they want.
  8. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think not everyone thinks this way and some accepted this as
    valid comparible to accredited degree espesially if the person later went and became licensed in his profession.

    But we know the history and majority didn't accept this approval as equal to accreditation, not a single college in US made a policy to accept such a degree, employers it's a deferent story becuase even today there is no uniform standard and some simple don't verify credentials.

    Other countries I heard a number of 20% acceptability but not sure what it ment.

  9. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    russ wrote:

    "Ah yes. The regional, national and professional accreditation committees and their definition of educational quality. Not that they agree on exactly what that is or are even consistent in their own application of standards. To affirm this point is to agree that these "organizations" are the last word on the definition of quality education. I don't agree and since I don't their standards are not applicable not are they the bar that needs to be reached or exceeded." (italics mine)

    I'd like to thank russ for this post as he has clearly demonstrated to all readers of this thread that he is not in touch with reality. He seems to believe that because he doesn't agree with something or someone (in this case, the universally accepted authorities on accreditation and educational quality in the US higher education system) that their opinions don't count. This is grandiosity and delusional thinking on a large scale. He believes that since he doesn't agree with the standards set forth by those organizations that this means their standards mean nothing. russ believes that everyone else in the world is wrong and he is right. Delusions of grandeur. I'm guessing that next russ will be telling us that we don't need to stop for red lights or pay our taxes. "It's OK everybody! You don't need to obey the law or pay attention to regulations! russ said so!" I can see now why you post anonymously.
    (oh, by the way, why did you put the word 'organization' in quotation marks? Were you trying to imply that they are not organizations? Is this part of your big conspiracy theory? If you bother to think about it, (don't bother) it's really rather sad.)
  10. russ

    russ New Member

    No, you are "sad" Jack for trying to take a legitimate discussion and turn it into personal attacks. I suspected that you had very little to add to any discussion and you have just proved the point. You could learn a lot by the way that Tony responds to my comments.

    Now that you have your playground comment out of the way, do you want to add a point or two or just stay on the sidelines and throw things at the players?
  11. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I never was good at reading about persons character from what they write.

    But I do think that over legislation is not allways the answer.
    I am very thankful for the freedoms i found in this wonderful country called USA.

    And remember the old way in USSR.
    I hope we don't loose these freedoms, in the name of consumer protection.

    but leaving in an area were people long time ego didn't had to look the dors and trusted more each other, today I will not leave
    my home unlooked.

    The problem is we have the freedoms until some one takes advantage and abuses them to the degree were there is no choice but to regulate.

    If there were no diploma mills and substandard schools - honor system would have existed and ligal power of school to operate would been sufficient and accreditation voluntary.

    The reality is in 99% unaccredited = unknown standard.
    Can range from very good to a paper for money.

    Russ were I disagree is that employers look at schools as institutions that educate people and provide and TEST to a level of some standard.

    So it's not only what unaccredited school can teach the learners but what the employers need the learners to know.

    As ABET evaluator at one point I can tell how important the aspect of employers representation in setting standards for schools.

    The same I asume is expectations from Academic universities
    and known VERIFIEBLE relible level of graduates that seek entry in to such institutions of higher learning.

    Without set level of minimum standards there is prooven way
    in our time in history to validate the level of education provided.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2005
  12. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Hi russ - My primary interest in this debate is to point out to newbies that you are a troll and nothing you say makes any sense. Beyond that you can feel assured that if I have anything to add then I will do so. I don't need your invitation or permission.
    (by the way, it didn't escape my attention that you made no attempt to show that I was wrong in anything I said. Your statement that I criticised made no sense at all and you've got no defense for it.)
  13. russ

    russ New Member

    Still calling names, eh Jack?

    Well, if I am the big, bad "troll" then you must be a "sheep" and somehow that seems fitting. Sheep have no mind of their own and simply follow along. Plus, they are always getting fleeced. Which would you rather be?

    As for my comment about accreditation organizations it is my opinion, and the last I heard, I am entitled to it. Accreditation is voluntary, not required, and that is also the law of the land. The extension of that law is that there are unaccredited colleges which provide a very good education. So, no, the accrediting bodies are not the end-all of educational quality evaluation and their standards can certainly be questioned.

    The six regional accrediting bodies were formed by the same schools they accredit and they continue to accredit those schools. How objective is that? Where is the "outside" evaluation?
  14. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    russ - you are not big and not smart enough to be especially bad. If I had to describe you I think I'd use terms that suggest a serious developmental delay. Despite all that, your post is again quite instructive as it is a good illustration of your faulty logic. I am referring to your statement (above) in which you posit
    that since you are a troll (correct so far) then I must be a sheep. Obviously there is no connection here, no causality, no relevance. You just make stuff up in that little, little mind of yours and then you believe that if it comes out of your mouth it must be true. So, thanks again for helping me to show the newbies that there are people out there who just should not be trusted.
    See you next time.
  15. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Russ I think CA state tried and didn't have match success.
    Do you think it was all political or because they did lausy job in their evaluations?

    I heard from people that ha internal info that they didn't have the resourses it takes.

    Also as far as learners if the requirements of most accredited universities is accredited degree, how do they serve their students
    if the degree is not good for entry in to accredited university?

    You may want to address the reasons I provided for the accreditation.

    You can have your opinion but Universities can have their procedures, and if they require accredited degree than
    it's a disservice to provide unaccredited one.

    And especially when there are so many accredited choices.

    As mentioned earlier ABET accredits programs that implement aBET guidelines, the guidelines come from Employers, yes the industry is represented, so is the academic, engineering and technology comunity and scientific as well.

    JPL has its input, NASA, IBM, GM microsoft just to name a fiew

    We got complains and concerns that some programs missed some elements and worked with the industy and the participating institutions to implement some of the recomendations.

    And we are competative, UK and China, Russia, EU - FEANI, canada all monitor accredit and validate that the programs are up to the standard.

    I asume that the same is with AMA, APA etc.
    I do aknolage is that ABA is not this way they work with some unaccredited schools but this is a form of accreditation anyway.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2005
  16. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    This penchant for public service announcements appears to be a ruse to attack russ. Troll, etc. I find most of what russ says makes perfect sense even with a few factual errors here and there. His position probably appeals more to those who are inclined to look at all paths rather than automatically seek the one most traveled. These folks often have stones thrown at them for being heretical. Maybe it's because it threatens the status quo, maybe its all about competitiveness and the need to differentiate, maybe some social and moral engineering going one with chastisement for those who stray from the norm.

    Regarding quality education... I think the institution's job is to facilitate learning. Learning or knowledge retention is not guaranteed anywhere. I think a very good education can be attained through even the lowliest institutions by virtue of individual motivation. It always depends on the individual. In contrast, I've seen some totally ineffective degreed idiots come out of the best schools.

    As long as the institution is legally constituted to offer the degree it purports, has an unambiguous history in education, and maintains its operation by virtue of governmental oversight, then that should be the end of the legitimacy argument since States are rightfully and constitutionally entitled to regulate education within their jurisdictions. Recognition by other education cartels notwithstanding even though recognition is an important factor considering utility of the degree.

    For those who really fret over this stuff... just go to a big name school, better yet one that's got a well known sports program. That should simplify your life. For others, do your homework.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2005
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