ABA recommends dropping LSAT requirement

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by SweetSecret, May 7, 2022.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I'd be cautious about signing J.D. Not illegal exactly but if you are representing taxpayers as an enrolled agent the Treasury Department might look askance at implying that you are "practicing law". In fact, you ARE practicing law but it's "authorized" by Cir. 230. You're just not allowed to say so.
     
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  2. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Interestingly, I've seen professors not use their JD initials in the academic setting although they currently practice law and teach courses related to the law. If one holds an MD or JD, I don't see any deception in using it in the academic setting with or without a license.
     
  3. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    You also have rarely, if ever, heard an academic lawyer describe himself as "Doctor". There's a rather tedious history behind this becoming modesty (so unlike lawyers!) that has been gone into here in other threads. Suffice it to say that the J.D. degree title is something of an (unnecessary) embarrassment. Rather like that tattoo of June Cleaver you got as a teenager.:D
     
  4. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    The weirdest one is PharmD. You hold a Doctor of Pharmacy to be a pharmacist, but you're not a doctor until you complete a Doctor of Philosophy in Pharmacy. But also, you're not a philosopher.
     
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  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    As I've said here before, I'd very much like to exchange my "Pink Pony" J.D. diploma for an intellectually honest and historically accurate LL.B.
     
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  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Here is the relevant part of Cir. 230:

    "§ 10.32 Practice of law. Nothing in the regulations in this part may be construed as authorizing persons not members of the bar to practice law."

    My concern is that using the J.D. title might lead people to believe that the enrolled agent is a lawyer.
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    On the other hand, here is what IRS says an enrolled agent must do when representing a client:

    "§ 10.33 Best practices for tax advisors. (a) Best practices. Tax advisors should provide clients with the highest quality representation concerning Federal tax issues by adhering to best practices in providing advice and in preparing or assisting in the preparation of a submission to the Internal Revenue Service. In addition to compliance with the standards of practice provided elsewhere in this part, best practices include the following: (1) Communicating clearly with the client Page 24 — § 10.30 regarding the terms of the engagement. For example, the advisor should determine the client’s expected purpose for and use of the advice and should have a clear understanding with the client regarding the form and scope of the advice or assistance to be rendered. (2) Establishing the facts, determining which facts are relevant, evaluating the reasonableness of any assumptions or representations, relating the applicable law (including potentially applicable judicial doctrines) to the relevant facts, and arriving at a conclusion supported by the law and the facts. (3) Advising the client regarding the import of the conclusions reached, including, for example, whether a taxpayer may avoid accuracy-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code if a taxpayer acts in reliance on the advice. (4) Acting fairly and with integrity in practice before the Internal Revenue Service. (b) Procedures to ensure best practices for tax advisors. Tax advisors with responsibility for overseeing a firm’s practice of providing advice concerning Federal tax issues or of preparing or assisting in the preparation of submissions to the Internal Revenue Service should take reasonable steps to ensure that the firm’s procedures for all members, associates, and employees are consistent with the best practices set forth in paragraph (a) of this section. (c) Applicability date. This section is effective after June 20, 2005."

    If you wade through the verbiage, it's a pretty good description of practicing tax law!
     
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  8. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    I'm just happy my acquaintance was able to salvage a career in taxation and accounting with an Enrolled Agent credential after not being able to pass the California Bar. Does the LLM provide another pathway for those that were unable to pass the California Bar by allowing them to take the Bar elsewhere?
     
  9. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    This may be true. However, in academia, it may be a different story. Pharm.D. as faculty are called "Dr." The same is true for DPT, J.D., etc. I do not address any J.D. in higher ed as "Dr." because they are not. Here are several examples of Pharm.D. being addressed as "Dr." https://www.usj.edu/academics/sppas/sppas-faculty/
     
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  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure I understand the question. Failing the California Bar Exam doesn't affect eligibility to take another state's bar exam based on holding a J.D. Unless, of course, the J.D came from a non-ABA approved school? Then it would. I don't know if another state would accept a California Bar accredited J.D. with an LL.M. Some states allow foreign trained lawyers to do this. Interesting question. I think you'd have to apply and see.

    "Salvaging" a career in taxation and accounting probably means that your acquaintance is happier and making better money than would have been the case in a typical law career.
     
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  11. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Yes, you are...all you have to say, I THINK THEREFORE I AM. Then you become a new René Descartes. :D
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Debits left, credits right. What more is there?

    (Yes, the CPA is a monster of an exam. I'm told it's quite normal for candidates to re-take sections of it.)
     
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  13. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    I got up to Intermediate Accounting before changing my profession and my eyes bulged for a moment before I saw the small print.
     
  14. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Yes, my acquaintance is a traditional law school graduate (on-campus) of a regionally accredited university in California that is or was only Cal Bar approved at the time of graduation. Does adding an LLM from an ABA Law school permit one to take the Bar in another State or US Territory?
     
  15. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Yes and no, it depends on the state. Some states allow unaccredited law degrees with ABA LLM, but not online JD. Some states allow foreign LLB and ABA LLM...some state requires having practiced the law from the different state being transferred.

    More specific in each state can be found here: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/misc/legal_education/2021-comp-guide.pdf
    - The 2022 version cost $15.00
     
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  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In the professions, the term "doctor" comes more from one's license to practice than it does from the degree title. That's why you have holders of a bachelor of medicine degree being called "doctor," because they're licensed physicians.

    We've seen many professions adopt a practical doctorate where none existed before. Sometimes those degrees become first-doctorates, the required credential to enter the profession. In others, like Nursing Practice, it can be the entry-level degree, but you can still become an NP by going through a master's program.

    Law is a funny one because it used the Bachelor of Laws as its entry degree, but around 50 years ago schools started switching to the JD. Yet, in practice, the term "doctor" is not used by lawyers, so switching to the JD didn't have an effect--except to further confuse. Advanced nursing practice, physical therapy, pharmacy; we're seeing more and more credential creep. But with lawyers, they just changed the title of the degree and carried on.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    WE didn't change it. The SCHOOLS changed it. Trying to simulate prestige where no genuine prestige was to be had.

    Grr.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Nice take. Thanks!
     
  19. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

  20. Futuredegree

    Futuredegree Active Member

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