ABA recommends dropping LSAT requirement

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by SweetSecret, May 7, 2022.

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  1. SweetSecret

    SweetSecret New Member

  2. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    I don't know how much this will change for most schools but good that they have the option.
     
  3. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Maybe I can finally pursue my legal ambitions :)

    I will never take any standardized tests, GRE, LSAT, GMAT, or otherwise.
     
    JoshD likes this.
  4. SweetSecret

    SweetSecret New Member

    I actually already took the LSAT once but there was an issue (which was not my fault) so I have to take it again and I have been putting it off. I ended up enrolling in the MBA program before taking it a second time. Admittedly I dread taking it again and I'm a little salty about it. I wish they were just look at my MBA GPA and my letters of recommendation and call it a day. I think I'm going to have to take it a second time though because I doubt the schools are going to drop the requirement that quickly, and I was planning on starting in the fall of 2023.
     
  5. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    Out of protest, or dislike of them? I've never actually taken a standardized test before. We don't have SATs in Canada and I've never had an IQ Test. None of the graduate programs I've applied to or attended required them, so it's just never happened.
     
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    One, I think they do little to predict one's potential to succeed. Two, I hate test-taking. So, I deliberately avoided all master's and doctoral programs that required the GRE or MAT.
     
    Dustin and JBjunior like this.
  7. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Most schools view undergraduate GPA versus grad school GPA because that puts everyone on a "level playing field" they say. However, they WILL look at you performance in grad school to help make admissions decisions, they just do not really utilize the GPA in regards to their admissions stats.
     
  8. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    I have never taken an admission exam. I remember my first SAT preparation leading to a car accident. From then I would never want to prepare for any admission test.
     
    Dustin likes this.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    If the consumers of LSAT data, law schools, were required to pay for it instead of shifting it onto applicants, the test would disappear overnight. Law schools would not find it worth the cost; they can ask for it because applicants are the ones paying for it.
     
  10. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    I’ve taken the MAT and GRE and it really isn’t a big deal! I certainly wouldn’t avoid schools based on jumping through a few hoops. However, I agree these exams may not be a good predictor of success in graduate school or for that matter, the actual profession. From my experience, the admissions team used it to check a box, nothing more. Just a waste of time and money for the applicant!

    Take for example the MCAT for medical school. The applicant has to take years of chemistry, physics, and biology, gets a great MCAT score and becomes an MD egghead that is horrible with patient care.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It is important to note that these examinations are not at all designed to predict professional success. At all. (This is why the clamor for the most recent SCOTUS nominee's LSAT scores was nonsensical and racist.) Thus, it would come as no surprise to hear anecdotes of people with high scores going on to poor professional performance. The two are not correlated, nor are they meant to be.
     
    Alpine likes this.
  12. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    I agree. I find it interesting that the military invests many dollars into screening for occupations. With the military spending billions in training yearly, they certainly need a reliable tool that predicts success rates for specific professions. I’m not convinced the civilian sector uses these tools for more than checking a box.
     
  13. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Well...but the LSAT is a valid prediction of first year performance and first time Bar passage. Why would you not want this information before spending a couple hundred thousand dollars?
     
    life_learner likes this.
  15. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    The assumption is that the LSAT score may be a predictor of success in passing the Bar. It's probably safe to say that those with higher LSAT scores get accepted into more prestigious law schools with higher first-time Bar passage. This makes the predictor for passing the Bar, more to do with the quality of the school and instruction rather than the LSAT score. I agree that the LSAT score is important "information" but more from the standpoint of getting into a top-notch school.

    Interesting conclusions in this study: curcioscholarlypaper-1.pdf (airweb.org)
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Who assumes this? Better yet, is this documented? I wouldn't accept it prima facie.
     
  17. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Nosborne48 said, "Well...but the LSAT is a valid prediction of first year performance and first time Bar passage." Is there data to support that assumption? I agree, where is it? The article I found concludes that there is little correlation between LSAT scores and passing the Bar at "some schools."
    "The study demonstrates that at some schools LSAT scores have limited value in predicting bar exam passage...."
    curcioscholarlypaper-1.pdf (airweb.org)

    My feeling is that high LSAT scores correlate more with getting accepted to top-tier law schools that produce graduates that have high pass rates on the Bar. I agree, one needs to research the "documentation" supporting or opposing that assumption! Go for it!
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am basing my statement on some rather old research commissioned by the Texas State Bar. I don't know if is still available on line but I will look.

    The cynic in me suspects the getting rid of the objective LSAT as a screening tool will allow law schools to recruit ever less qualified applicants. True, the Bar exam will keep many from ever practicing but that will happen after they've borrowed $200,000 and paid it over to the school.
     
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    In the meantime you can look at LSAC's research page to find more or less the same thing. Www.lsac.org
     
    Alpine likes this.
  20. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Your concerns about law students being accepted without a vetting process and subsequently having hundreds of thousands in debt without a license to practice is heard loud and clear. I mentioned the military vetting/assessment process of potential servicemen with good predictive tools before spending millions in training. Apparently, the public education sector in many ways, is more concerned with revenue than outcomes.
     

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