$347,000 in student debt who can't land a job...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by AsianStew, Jul 17, 2022.

  1. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    Ouch, more student debt news - From social work to law school to hefty student debt, he's also been moving from WA state to his fiancee's state of NM. He says he's not going to pay his loans even though he wants to, I think it'll just balloon further!

    I see these numbers going up and up, government should just ax their tuition debt interest but leave the initial loan amount to pay off... That amount of debt can buy a pretty good place to live in some areas! Other than that, I don't know what else they can do.

    Link: Meet a first-generation attorney with $347,000 in student debt who can't land a job and says 'there are a substantial number of people like me that are being forgotten' (msn.com)
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    He signed for interest - he has to pay it. He's a lawyer; he should know that. I think he knew that going in, before he was a lawyer.
    No sympathy here. I no longer pay interest or collect it. Had lots of experience with both, before I realized it's wrong. My financial life is much better now. I don't have that much stuff (except 8 guitars, a new sewing machine, too many pictures and a huge number of books) but I don't owe a penny in the world and I have more money than I ever did. I paid for school as I went - when I could afford it, from age 40+ to 60+.

    Even though I think interest is wrong - I'm not sure about forgiving it. I'm on the fence - it's kind of like forgiving stupidity. THESE PEOPLE KNEW. ALL OF THEM!
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2022
    Dustin likes this.
  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Fact is, I still do it. I've slowed down a bit, but I don't plan to stop till I drop. Cash up front, like everything else. The would-be lawyer is making headlines for all the wrong reasons. I think he's sealed his fate on practising his profession - for good. It was probably sealed anyway, from word go. The oversupply of new lawyers and the cost of law school have been hot topics here for years. So how come he didn't know?
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2022
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I noticed something here. The would-be lawyer is from an immigrant family. This whole thing clashes with the thrift and responsibility that are most often indelible hallmarks of immigrants. It seems these traits dilute quickly in succeeding generations. Not surprising, to me. Over 40 years ago, I had a job collecting delinquent student loans. A frequent pattern among families with first-generation immigrants still alive - you got swift cash payment - 100% - from the parents - or grandparents, as soon as they found out. They wouldn't stand for someone in the family not living up to their obligations - so they took the hit.

    I'd imagine those days are pretty well over, now.
  5. SweetSecret

    SweetSecret Member

    I am mind boggled that someone would or even could take out this much debt for school. With that said, I know plenty of recent JD grads that are starting new jobs in firms in that neck of the woods. Seems like there might be a reason he is not getting hired...
    JBjunior and Johann like this.
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Indeed there might be. I do have much sympathy for his fiancée, primarily based on her health problems - but not entirely so. They have a mortgage - or he does, at least. But where is their house?
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't understand. When I borrow the use of someone else's asset, I pay them for that use.

    I'm currently in a VRBO in Central California. The owners let us stay in it. We paid them for the week.

    Last month, we were in San Diego. We stayed in a hotel. We paid the hotel to do that.

    In September, I borrowed money from a lender to buy a house. I pay for the use of that lender's asset.

    I'm not understanding the difference between interest charged on loans and other forms of renting the use of someone else's asset.

    (Now, if the tough guy tells you the vig is 1.5 points a week, cash, then maybe we're looking at something different. But most states have usury laws to help prevent lenders from abusing their customers.)
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I like the Islamic system. In old days, usury was rife - so Mohammed came up with an answer for ALL interest: Make it go away.

    In Islamic finance, ALL interest is haram -ritually unclean. You buy a house, there are different ways of paying for it. I've discussed them here a couple of times. One is a musharrakah mortgage. It's a rent-to-own, on a sliding scale. Your monthly payment goes to rent and equity. As equity increases, rent portion decreases. There are financial institutions in my province that will grant you a conventional, or musharrakah mortgage - whichever you prefer, whether you're Muslim or not. The cost will be worked out to be the same. Investment and commercial transactions all have alternatives to interest. Lenders get rewarded - just not interest.

    There are ways to finance consumer goods - that include mark-up and resale, but not interest. I like their system. I took a course in it a while back. I'm not much on the religion - but I learned enough to understand the financial system - and I don't have to be of any particular religion to get along in that. There are many Islamic-compliant investment opportunities. They don't have to be Muslim-owned companies or be on the other side of the world. There are Halal (ritually clean) ETFs and Mutual Funds readily available. And there is, in recent years, ahuge amount of trading in "Islamic Bonds" - sukuk (sing. sak). The companies that issue these pay periodic returns to the investor, like an interest-bearing bonds - but the religious authorities who issue permission have agreed - those payments are not interest; they are a portion of the profits made by the underlying assets.

    I have one credit card that I use for Internet purchases only. I have a bank debit card - no interest for daily use. That doesn't work for the net. My credit card isn't Islamic but my use is. I get the bill - I pay. No interest. I could get an Islamic card that doesn't charge interest. But it's a hassle - so I just make Islamic use of my present one. I don't think any Imam would be upset - but I've never asked. I'm not a Muslim and nobody requires me to be one. I just like the money-things. I have true financial peace for the first time in my life. that's worth a LOT, I can tell you!

    Abu Bakr ibn Abi Maryam reported that he heard the Messenger of Allah say: “A time is certainly coming over mankind in which there will be nothing (left) that will be of use (or benefit) save a Dinar (i.e., a gold coin) and a Dirham (i.e., a silver coin).”
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
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  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I don't like interest - so I don't collect it or pay it. But if someone believes otherwise - they should pay what they agreed to. When I got my credit card, I agreed to pay interest if it fell due. I just make sure it doesn't. Years ago, I paid all kinds of it. Credit cards, loans, bought two houses. Paid my dues - had enough.
    Maniac Craniac and Rich Douglas like this.
  10. nomaduser

    nomaduser Active Member

    If I could go back in time, I will do the following.

    - Take the max amount of CLEP, AP credits available
    - Take affordable online courses that grants credits
    - Transfer the 90 credits
    - Get an IT degree within 1 year at brick and mortar school

    This will significantly save tuition money.. and the brick and mortar IT degree will still land me a high paying job.
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I respect your view on credit, particularly as it applies to yourself. But I still don’t see the distinction between interest and other forms of borrowing assets. Even the mortgages you described are borrowing (as anyone in a rent-to-own contract knows). But if the distinction is that it is a religious precept and that’s that, then that’s that. I’m not trying to challenge anyone’s beliefs or values.
    Johann likes this.
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It IS a religious precept - for Muslims. it is certainly borrowing, and you pay for that in various ways. Often rent-to-own, or markup and resale to you at a higher price. e.g. You want a used car that sells for $8,000. The financial intermediary buys it for $8K and resells it to you for $9,600 - in monthly payments on a 3-year note. (Arbitrary figures -pulled out of my hat.)

    I like the system for a lot of reasons, some connected with interest, and others not, and that's why I um - "extracted" it from religion and adopted it. Doing this doesn't make me a Muslim any more than learning Arabic would. I feel the Islamic system removes access to a lot of evil crap that can only be accomplished through traditional interest. For example, I've worked in finance and I know the sleight-of-hand, for instance, that can be worked into a re-fi! Also, the Islamic financial system does not allow gambling or speculation. I like that too. The way I see it, you follow the investment principles wholeheartedly (and I haven't talked much about them) and you'll likely get to invest in some pretty good companies. It's worked for me so far.

    It's not just interest vs. no interest, but the whole package that attracts me - and the religious view on interest is an integral part of the whole - and adopting my own anti-interest policy has saved me money. "Do what works" - that's all it is.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I still don’t see how interest is any different from paying for anything else one borrows. Even a library book, if held longer than the due date, will create charges. Time = money.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes In fact, Rich, a Nigerian (a nice guy, not the one you might be thinking of) once said to me "time na money." And in the circumstances, I readily agreed with him.

    But the library thing -that's a penalty to me. A fine for breaking the rules. BUT - to each his own. If you regard interest as the same as paying for anything else, I won't argue against it. We all have our divergent views. Interest is one of three things I don't like to pay for. Parking is the second. I'll let you guess the third. :)
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    As a final word on the subject, let me give one more analogy. Both Jews and Muslims observe a prohibition on consuming pork. Financially speaking, Muslims may not invest in companies that produce pork or pork products.

    I theorize that at some point. early Jewish religious leaders (likely including Moses himself) observed that eating pork was a dicey, dangerous proposition in a region with a warm climate and no refrigeration. You could die from something you didn't even know had gone bad, in some cases. So, concerned with the good of their people, leaders enshrined the prohibition into ritual, and consequently religious law. I'm sure Mohammed knew of this prohibition and considered it a common-sense thing for his people.

    What has that to do with interest? We all know (from these pages) that interest has a history of producing debt slavery when it gets out of control - so what better means of control than abolishment? I'm pretty sure that thought probably entered The Prophet's mind and he saw it as beneficial to his people. Makes logical sense to me. I know debt slavery existed in times long before Mohammed. In Egypt for example, people sold themselves into slavery to pay debts. There are even written contracts, preserved in museums, of parents pledging small children as security for debts. Not a pretty picture.

    Interest may be the same as other payments, Rich, as you maintain - I won't argue. But as I said, I flat don't like it. I was a debt collector for 30 years. I've seen what it can do. It can destroy some people. So I'll avoid it, as I learned to do with alcohol, years ago. No destruction for me, thanks. I know how it works. Others' mileage may vary. I'm not preachin' here.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
  17. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    In numerous places the Torah prohibits a person from borrowing, lending or being a party to a transaction that involves charging another person interest.
    Interestingly that in Hebrew the word for Slave is Aebed(Eved) - which means a worker. Avoda - means work. And name like Ovadiyah - means slave/worker of God.
    In Arabic the same, Abed = such as Abdullah, means slave of God. One would get permanent contract employment for at least 7 years at the time.
    Torah indeed sees slavery as a problematic phenomenon. The Torah declares about the slave: “For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as a slave is sold” (Leviticus 25:42). Even the slavery the Torah allows is not standard slavery. A slave is only a long-term hired worker, not the property of the master, since he is the slave of God. And the enslavement does not leave him devoid of human rights.
    As to Kosher foods, and non kosher foods - pork included.
    In simplicity the Torah dietary laws and purity laws etc, are issued by the manufacturer - who provided owner operation manual for the humans who came in to a special covenant - warranty with the manufacturer.
    The manufacturer knows how to best operate and maintain the product :).
    Johann likes this.
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That name is in the Hebrew Bible, transliterated as Obadiah - one of 12 minor prophets I believe. Back in another century, it was a man's name among Christians, too. And I've heard of American slave-owners naming slaves Obadiah. Now I know what it means.

    Thanks for the post Lerner - good info to learn.
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I like paying to use someone else's money, but I try not to make a habit of it. A mortgage and a student loan balance is all I have in that regard. The former I consider unavoidable; the latter I'm a little sick of the payments, even after 32 years of federal service.
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And Obadiah is usually translated today as "servant of God."

    I said "American slave-owners." I forgot about MY people - the English. Many of them were slave-owners in the West Indies - and I'm sure there were slaves there, named Obadiah. I've researched back - and I didn't find any slave-owners in my direct family line. I like to think there weren't any - at least on my birth-mother's side. My biological father? Haven't a clue. His name isn't recorded and I'll never know.

    Slavery wasn't a big thing in Somerset, England - but at least three of my direct ancestors did considerable time in Penal Servitude - transported to Australia / Tasmania in the 1850s. My great-great grandfather, his brother in law and, IIRC, a great-great uncle- on GG Grandma's side. Real criminals! Desperados! Donkey Stealing! All three of them - 10 or 15 years apiece. Lock up your livestock! Johann's in town! :)

    Oh, the stories you get, when you poke under family rocks...

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