12% of voters are illegal immigrants in Frederick County (Maryland)

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by me again, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Author: Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times

    Citizens went to court to show that non-citizens were registering fraudulently to vote in Frederick County, Maryland. A court employee turned over pages of residents’ names disqualified from jury duty because of illegal immigrant status.

    Those lists were compared with voting records and 180 non-citizens were registered to vote. Of those, 63 had voted, some in multiple elections. The 180 registered votes came from 1,400 disqualified non-citizens, a rate of 12.8 percent.

    Frederick County’s numbers offer a snapshot from jury pools showing that non-citizens are registered to vote and are casting ballots in states which administer federal, state and local elections.

    “Obviously, there are people on the voting rolls who have no business being on the voter rolls,” said Daniel M. Gray, a lawyer who filed the lawsuit. “What needs to be determined is how extensive is this.”

    A group of political scientists declared that “zero” non-citizens voted in U.S. elections. However, the Frederick County court case deals with real people, not polls, and it shows illegal immigrants do indeed vote.

    Click here for full story.
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Well, I don't know much of anything about the "facts" in this article. Maybe these are some of Kelly Ann's "alternative facts." I don't know. But there are a few things that I do know. I know that it's possible for an undocumented immigrant to get a driver's license in Maryland. And I know that the Motor/Voter Bill registers people to vote when they get their driver's license. Having spent a certain amount of time in my local DMV it's not difficult for me to believe that some people were mistakenly registered to vote through that mechanism. If it's true that a few actually voted/tried to vote, well obviously it should not happen but it's far from constituting evidence of some widespread conspiracy. And as for our dear friends at the Washington Times, even after the events of today's Comey hearing, they're still defending Trumps wire tapping claims so . . .

    LETTER TO THE EDITOR: Wiretap claim's good timing - Washington Times
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The Washington Times doesn't impress me either, but it's not an endorsement of its content when a newspaper publishes a letter to the editor.
  4. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Maryland is in compliance with the federal "Real ID Act," which means that state drivers licenses are not legally issued to applicants, unless they provide proof of citizenship. However, it is possible for an illegal immigrant to illegally provide forged, false or fake documents.

    Real ID Act:
  5. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    No amount of information will make them admit that illegals are voting. I say admit because they know its happening.

    FLASHBACK: WaPo Publishes Study That Claims Millions of Illegal Aliens Vote | Daily Wire
  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    12% of alleged illegal immigrants were allegedly registered to vote. Homework assignment: find at least 2 ways this is different from "12% of voters are illegal immigrants in Frederick County (Maryland)". Even that number was obtained using undisclosed methodology - likely by comparing names; notoriously imprecise.

    The political genius of Trump is his ability to turn ordinary citizens to hyper-partisans; they in turn are willing not just to share fake news, but also to create their own. Is it just me, or this is really dangerous? BTW, Putin achieved the same feat with Crimea annexation; do they have the same advisors? Oh that's right: Manafort.

    If illegal immigrants are willing to vote at this rate (risking felony conviction and lifetime inadmissibility if discovered) - well, this is an impressive level of civic engagement which I do not really observe even among legal immigrants. It is telling that just a handful of people were ever charged with the deed, some clearly confused about their status and were assuming they can vote. This (impressive feats of stupidity) I can believe; it is very unlikely to move an election though.
  7. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Whether it's 10%, 12% or 15%: It's too many and lax loopholes need to be closed to make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to register to vote.

    There is nothing civic or impressive about illegal aliens voting illegally in the United States. Lax loopholes will be closed.

    President Donald Trump is a wrecking ball against political correctness. He will be in office for eight years (followed by four years under Pence).
  8. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Why do you think that there's so much opposition to voter ID laws?

    Here in California, I don't recall having to show any ID or proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. It was just a short little form in which I had to check a box that I was a citizen and sign my name at the bottom 'under penalty of perjury'. No supporting documents of any kind were required.

    It's so easy that I personally believe that some unknown but probably significant fraction of those registering to vote in many places probably aren't citizens.
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Meanwhile the opposition in Dominica has been calling for more stringent voter ID rules for years. Whether one supports or opposes those sorts of rules seems to depend less on principle and more on whether it's a touchdown for the home team or the away team.

    Personally, if you're going to have elections, then I think ID rules are a good idea, provided that there is no fee whatsoever at any stage of the process to get one. In Virginia one can get a state ID card at the DMV (people call it a "walkers license") for $10, I don't think there should even be that fee.
  10. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yet you keep giving numbers. Bogus ones.
    Let's see: in 2016, Frederick County, MD had 164,428 registered voters. From your link: a biased non-profit, eager to show mass illegal voting, found 180 noncitizens (which is not the same as "illegals" BTW. While studying at Florida State, I got an official letter inviting me to register with Selective Service; I was neither required nor able to do so as an F1 student. It is reasonable to assume some legal non-immigrants get registered to vote by mistake as well). That represents, oh, 0.11% aggressively rounding up.
    Of these 180, the plaintiffs decided (using whichever method they chose) that 63 actually voted. Let's go ahead and assume, generously, that all of them in fact voted in 2016 General elections. In total, 126,536 people had voted. As you see, 63 voters would represent about 0.05% of the total. And that assuming their method of identifying illegal voters has any merit: notably, they did not try to nail any of the 63 alleged violators (who would have to commit perjury AND falsely claiming citizenship, both crimes).

    From standing for liberty and healthy suspicion of government, to fighting "lax loopholes". Impressive evolution for American conservatism.

    So, faced with such shiny horizons, what's a lie or two? That's a creed of extremists of any stripe.
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    "According to the Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration’s website (MVA), the new law allows undocumented immigrants to obtain a driver’s license when they have an identity document such as a valid current foreign passport, Maryland Income taxes for the preceding two years and two residency documents"

    Applying for a Driver

    I have no problem conceding that some people have voted illegally. I think it would be silly to say it's never happened. I also think it's fine to close whatever loopholes you like. I generally trust the legislative process to be fair. As for Trump being a wrecking ball, these days he looks more like a wreck. A major embarrassment over his wiretapping tweets. And the whole Russian connection thing is a ticking time bomb. Trumpcare won't pass as it's currently written and I haven't seen any construction startups down on that southern border. Still, it's early in the process. Who knows what will happen?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2017
  12. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Because voter ID laws are solution to nonexistent problem. There are two reasons to oppose them: first, some people are reluctant to impose any mandatory government ID on freedom grounds. Second, in many places courts had found that such laws suppress (and even "designed to suppress") turnout among poor, young, and minority voters; in other words, groups that tend to vote Democrat. And some Republican officials stupidly admitted as much.

    Personally, I have zero dogs in this fight at the moment. My Canadian IDs are all current, and I had no problem voting both times I wanted to (Toronto municipal plus the latest Federal elections).

    So, all people break laws for no other reason that it's easy? Or only "noncitizens"?
  13. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    нуль незаконних голосів? nulʹ nezakonnykh holosiv?

    There are people who say that there was 0% voter fraud in the United States. They say nay, there is not even one single fraudulent vote. Nadda. Zip. Zero.

    Stanislav, as a foreighner, do you think that there is there an acceptable percentile for illegal voting in the U.S.?
  14. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    0.11% is much closer to 0 than it is to 12%. If you like, I can google Dr. Isaac Azimov's (who was, interestingly, a Jewish immigrant from south Russia before becoming great American writer) essay on hierarchy of wrongness again.

    Fiscal prudence dictates that it's not worth spending money fighting something that has no impact on outcome (especially if it could disenfranchise more Americans than there are alleged cheats). Which generally happens to be American approach to law enforcement (consider speeding and tax evasion).

    What I, as a foreigner, find unacceptable is using bogus numbers and outright lies in order to fan hostility towards foreigners. Both Mr. Trump and his supporters, including you, insist on keeping doing exactly that, using tactics much worse than what Harpercons used here in Canada. So forgive me if I wish you every failure in your political hopes.
  15. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Stanislav, the political hope is to make America great again. When President Trump wins his second election, the goal is to keep America great. As a foreigner, you are cordially invited to help Americans with this noble endeavor.

    The purpose of identifying and eliminating illegal voter fraud is not to "fan hostility" to foreigners.

    The goal is to identify illegal voting and to close lax loopholes - and not to fan hostility.

    Canadians and Ukrainians have historically not done as well financially, economically and industrially, so following their model is not prudent.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2017
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    The path you chose will not lead to that goal. Mark my word.

    Not true. The goal is, and always has been, to win elections and feed the ego of the likes of Trump. Secondary goal is to cut taxes for the rich. And the means to achieve this is to fan hostility towards whoever is convenient - foreigner, Latino, Muslim, LGBT, "feminists", "libruls". It worked, as you see.

    Ad hominem. Try making substantial arguments.
  17. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    I wonder what ever happened to the 3 to 5 million illegals voting (Infowars) conspiracy theory Trump stated as fact. Wasn't he going to call for an investigation? Oh yeah, no. These constant lies are catching up to him, no wonder his approval rating has dipped to 37%. Ouch!
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2017
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    What the Real ID Act actually says,

    "Secure driver's licenses and identification documents are a vital component of our national security framework. The REAL ID Act, passed by Congress in 2005, enacted the 9/11 Commission’s recommendation that the Federal Government “set standards for the issuance of sources of identification, such as driver's licenses.” The Act established minimum security standards for license issuance and production and prohibits Federal agencies from accepting for certain purposes driver’s licenses and identification cards from states not meeting the Act’s minimum standards. The purposes covered by the Act are: accessing Federal facilities, entering nuclear power plants, and, no sooner than 2016, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft. "


    "The Act’s prohibitions do not affect other uses of driver’s licenses or identification cards – including licenses and cards from noncompliant states – unrelated to official purposes as defined in the Act. For example, the Act does not apply to voting, registering to vote, or for applying for or receiving Federal benefits."

  19. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    lassen Sie mich sehen Sie Ihre Papiere

    For many years, Congress refused to create a National ID card because some feared it would lead to a totalitarian state. However, after 9/11 occurred, it was the impetus for passage of the Real ID Act, which lays the groundwork for a nationwide federal database (sort of) that will eventually integrate all state drivers license databases into a nationwide system. However, to ensure that the system is accurate, new federal standards are being imposed on all states for obtaining drivers licenses. For example, to be in full compliance with federal standards, states must now have applicants (for drivers licenses) prove that they are American citizens by providing legal paperwork i.e. a birth certificate or other legal documentation authorizing them to be in the United States. However, many states balked, and have procrastinated, which is why so many states are currently in non-compliance. However, the federal government keeps granting extensions to non-compliant states. The Real ID Act was supposed to be in full compliance many years ago, but it is not. Now you know the rest of the story.

    People who have been driving for several decades suddenly had to bring in certain kinds of proofs i.e. birth certificates or passports or current bills (showing valid addresses), etc. In theory, once all states and territories are in full compliance, then the United States will have a National ID database - or at least will have laid the infrastructural groundwork for one.

    And for your entertainment, here is a little humor:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQL71kV4t8 (39 sec)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhIPvEanMg (38 sec)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5R60kq5QM (1 min 22 sec)
  20. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    American election laws are matters to be decided by Americans. American citizens are the ones to decide on what they think is best for their own country. How outsiders would prefer things to be is irrelevant.

    Many foreigners certainly seem to want to be able to dictate the terms of their own entry into the United States. (That's what illegal entry and all the demands for amnesty are all about.) And judging from this thread, once here (whether legally or not) some foreigners want to be able to vote without any criticism from Americans or any attempts for enforce the laws against their doing so.

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