106 teachers may be fired in Miami-Dade for buying fake credentials

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by chydenius, Sep 1, 2005.

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  1. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    On the other hand, the big question, I think, is who are the idiots who are in the HR departments of the high schools that approved these degrees?
     
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Re: corruption

    Actually, one should not focus exclusively upon either inputs or outputs. I'm sure most of us have heard it said: garbage in, garbage out. Now, if that is true, if you want good stuff out, how about putting good stuff in? Eh? In other words, the two are not mutually exclusive.
     
  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    A kid with Fake ID gets busted for buying alcohol in local 7/11
    stor.

    Police walkes in and eposes that the kid is under the legal age to by alcohol.

    The store clark sold the kid alcogol, checked the ID and to him it looked real, is he responcible, is the kid guilty as well?


    Learner
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    It depends on how realistic the ID was. If it was a near-perfect copy of a legitimate ID, then the store and/or store clerk would probably not face any charges/sanctions. If it was an obvious fake, that would change things.

    Early in this summer, one of my co-workers saw an obviously underage (he was 16) person carrying beer out of a local package store. To make a long story short, this guy presented a fake Pennsylvania driver's license to buy the beer, that had several things about it that the store owner was specifically told to watch out for, including obviously faked holographs.

    Again, long story short, the kid was arrested for presenting a false ID to procure alcoholic beverages, and being minor in possession of alcohol. The store owner was brought before the city licensing board, where his license to sell alcoholic beverages was revoked (this was but the latest in a long history of him selling to underage kids).

    BTW.....have a few more yourself. :D
     
  5. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Thou speakest in parables, Lerner (both of you and Mr. Azad, too)!

    Let me see if I can decipher thy parable. The kid that bought the booze is like as unto the teachers who bought the degrees. The kid that sold the booze is like as unto the horse's pitut in human resources that approved the degrees. The real question is not truly about whether we arrest the young kid convenience store clerk who sold booze to someone under 18 or 21 (depending on the state), but whether we should guillotine the HR people that approved the degrees.

    The answer is: Yes in both cases.

    Speaking now as an ex-convenience store clerk: When an underage kid buys booze from some young kid convenience store clerk, both could get arrested, the one for being a minor in possession and the other selling to a minor. Who actually will get arrested?

    If the minor was acting on his own, he might get arrested or he might get a slap on the wrist and sent home to his parents. If the minor was acting in concert with the cops, that's called an undercover sting operation so, of course, he's not going to get arrested.

    Will the young kid convenience store clerk get arrested. He could be. But maybe he won't be. The convenience store clerk might get arrested. His employer might fire him. The convenience store might get fined (up to $10,000, when I was a convenience store clerk in Seattle in 2001) and might even lose its liquor license. If the convenience store clerk is respectful and the cop's in a good mood, the young kid convenience store clerk might get off with a warning and just have to put the beer back on the shelf and give a refund.

    However, as I point out, lerner, you're not really talking about convenience store clerks selling beer to minors, now, are you? What you are talking about is incompetent human resource officials in the school system in Florida who approved a worthless degree program. Why do you think they should get off with nothing? If they were too stupid or too incompetent to know that they degree program they approved was worthless, they should not be working in human resources anyway and they should be fired with a note in their personnel file about why they were fired. And if they knew that the place was not legitimate and they approved it anyway, they are obviously equally guilty co-conspirators and should be arrested as well. The teachers were obviously guilty only of being stupid enough to believe that their administrators knew what were doing.
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I understand your argument.

    What is not clear to me is how good the fake was?

    It apears that real colleges got deccieved too.
    Whitout the detailesI can't tell.

    And the thing with Azad, 99% of the readers already realized long time ego that him and I are not the same persons nor he posts under this user name.

    The cheap ccomment is just that cheap obviusly to discredit me.
    So as mutch as I try to ignore this coment.

    may I ask why you whant to let the teachers of the hook?
    Are you one of them or are you holding fake credential your self?

    I have respect to teachers specially like my sons teacher who this summer is in NYU taking CE classes.

    Learner
     
  7. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    No, I am not a teacher. No, I do not hold a fake credential. The only credentials I hold are on my signature line and they are very real.

    Can you find one place here where I have said that the teachers ought to be let off the hook? No! Can you find any place here where I have said that the administrators who approved the program ought to be held responsible and dealt with accordingly? If you were reading my actual argument (and not just what you want my argument to say), you would see that that is exactly what I have been saying!

    The operative principle here is that the schools approved this program and the individuals who approved it (even more so than the teachers who took it) should be helfd responsible for knowing a legit program from one that is not legit. If the administrators who approved the program were simply too stupid or too lazy to notice that this program was not legit, they should be fired because somebody who doesn't know how to tell a legit program from a non-legit program should not be working in HR in the first place. If, on the other hand, the administrators who approved this program knew that it was not legit and approved it anyway, then obviously the HR people at the schools who gave said approvals are equally guilty co-conspirators and should be arrested for fraud and racketeering.

    Given that the high schools approved this program for their teachers, it is their own damn fault for approving it in the first place but they should be helfd to their agreements as made, learn their lesson, and actually figure out how much it costs to hire an HR person with an actual real live brain who knows about accreditation issues to handle approving degree programs for their teachers in the future.
     
  8. Whether "Lerner" is, or is not, Azad is a mystery....

    However, what is not a mystery is that whoever is writing these posts makes no intelligent attempt whatsoever at consistency of spelling or usage of the language. How hard is that anyway? The excuse can't be "I don no zee langooage"..... Even I can spell excellent French when I want to, from my rather limited exposure to it in 8th grade....

    Even the name "Lerner" is an insult to his (and by implication, this board's) intelligence..... It is spelled "L-E-A-R-N-E-R". I suggest until this person has at least an elementary education, he stop posting his nonsense here!

    Sheez..... sometimes the obvious requires pointing out, does it not?
     
  9. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Lerner = learner. It is a common German-Jewish name in Germanic and Slavic domains, including Brighton Beach.
     
  10. With all due respect, I do not think that is how THIS "Lerner" is using it.....

    Have you seen his feeble attempts at spelling ANYTHING?

    It is really super bad when you can't even figure out how to spell your own "handle".....
     
  11. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    And, of course, his screen name is spelled "Lerner" while his signature line is spelled "Learner."
     
  12. Yeah, and if decimon's defense of this nutcase is to be taken seriously, then I guess I should change my handle to "Harry Balczak", also a legitimate Slavic name..... and spelled correctly!
     
  13. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Or his/their own name/s, if that really is his/their name/s.

    Theodorus van Huygens
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Carl you constantly engage in name calling.

    So TW applies here.

    TW
     
  15. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    It's not a defense but a reasonable possibility. Lerner has yet to respond to me so I have no personal reason to jump to his defense.

    And...as a good son of New York I'm wired to connect dots of corruption. I'd guess that the possibilty of the 'mafiya' thing being in play occurred to me before any others.
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Learner is a one person, never had any problems with the law, good citizen and has no conections to the mafia.

    I'm a professional who has interest in DL.
    Education was and is very important to me.

    I sleep well at nights and have noting to hide, the couple of bucs
    we - my wife and I eaned are by our hard work, we contribute to society.

    We have a dog and a cat beside the little lerners rouning around.
    Well if we selebrate an event than i heard a rumore that one of the restorants maybe owned by the mafia, this is my conection I eat there couple times a year.

    Pople here, our friends etc are mostly immigrants and educaation, work etc are often things we talk about.

    It's about survival and the AMERICAN dream.

    As simple as that.

    Learner=Lerner
     
  17. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    What is TW?
     
  18. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    Re: Re: Re: corruption

    Moral relativism isn't very apt here. The last time I looked, fraud was illegal in all 50 states. If you wish to argue that breaking this law is moral, then your moral relativism is quite strong indeed.

    Ted's posts seem to suggest that the school administrations/HR departments pre-approved this program. Your original post, upon which I have been basing my judgments, does not indicate this.

    Rather, the article cited says: "School officials said most of the teachers avoided scrutiny by submitting their fake credentials directly to state officials and not to the local system." This indicates to me that the "school officials," whoever they are, believe that those teachers were acting with a consciousness of guilt, as the lawyers would say.

    If, of course, Ted is correct, then this obviates their culpability somewhat.


    At the risk of belaboring the obvious, dogs are not humans, a distinction which is often overlooked nowadays.

    No need to be histrionic. No one is asking teachers to be priests (heaven forbid), but rather to conform to a basic level of honesty.

    If this is a concept that is troublesome for you, then perhaps the educational system is indeed in extremis.

    On the other issue, it seems that we have a philosophical-level disagreement about what education is and how it should be assessed, a level of disagreement that this thread is unlikely to resolve.

    Regards,

    marilynd
     
  19. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Troll warning, I assume Lerner uses it for its amusing ironic value.
     
  20. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: corruption

    Agreed.

    Not really. There is a raft of "unjust enrichment" sort of legal philosophy and rulings based upon it; plus the clear language in law, itself, to guide us in situations like that. If the requirements/criteria of the degree are stated in writing somewhere; and if the HR people are required to ensure that all degrees proffered meet said requirements/criteria; and, then, if, for whatever reason the HR people either err or commit an act which causes them to accept, after all, improper degrees which don't meet the criteria, then the responsibility does not suddenly shift away from the teachers and onto the school district. That's just nonsense.

    Whether by omission or commission on the part of the school district's HR people, the teachers are just as culpable either way. Of course there should be consequences for the HR people also; but if what constitutes an acceptable degree is written down somewhere as a guide for teachers to follow (which I'm certain it is), then if they do not follow it, but still somehow get it past the HR people, then they don't get to get away with it just because someone in HR was asleep at the switch. Things just don't work that way... nor should they.
    • The teachers should be fired; and,
    • the teachers should have to make restitution to the school district for all increased salary paid to them which they earned on account of their fake degrees; and,
    • the HR people should either be fired or at least reprimanded; and,
    • all HR people should be properly trained in the ins and outs of accreditation and diploma/degree mills (as should have been the case anyway) so this sort of thing will never happen again.
    Why we're arguing about this is, to me, both unclear and silly.

    Boy, is it ever. And, yes, they're most definitely not.

    Amen.

    Oh... I dunno. If good posts like yours (and, hopefully, mine... and those of others, here, too) keep up, I think we have a halfway decent shot at it. ;)
     

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